5 ms·

Yeah, this sounds 100% like "working as intended". Even if they aren't stolen, this prevents people who've gotten their hands on these laptops for free/cheap (r

by rhtgrg 4y ago

Yeah, this sounds 100% like "working as intended". Even if they aren't stolen, this prevents people who've gotten their hands on these laptops for free/cheap (recycling) don't also get their hands on an unassuming user's data. I'd rather that my data is protected than someone make a quick buck from my refuse (or worse, by stealing from me). For legitimate transactions or ones where the data liabilities are fully disclosed, you can obviously get around this easily.

Vogtinator 4y ago
Protecting data is perfectly possible without bricking the machine. Just wiping the encryption key as part of a full reset is enough for that.
- msh 4y ago
  But as a owner it's also in my interest that a stolen device cannot be used.
  - rchaud 4y ago
    You can already do that on Find my Mac by locking the phone/laptop remotely. Same way as you would when your credit card is stolen; a couple of clicks and no one else can use it.
- agloe_dreams 4y ago
  It's more than data. Apple's disk encryption already does that on iOS. Activation lock isn't just data protection: It is Anti-theft. The concept was that bricking the hardware if it is stolen would reduce the, at the time, massive rise of theft. Activation lock on iOS (and all kinds of keying hardware to that board) basically shut down cell phone theft as they become worthless. They added the same to MacOS.
  - jrockway 4y ago
    Yeah, I haven't heard of someone having their iPhone stolen since about 2015. Killing the illegal resale market with "if you don't know the password, the phone is a brick" is probably the biggest reduction in crime that society has ever experienced.
    - MagnumOpus 4y ago
      > Yeah, I haven't heard of someone having their iPhone stolen since about 2015 You haven't been paying attention then. In London, phone snatching (iPhones preferred) has been and remains an epidemic to the tune of tens of thousands a year - in a single city. They might not be resold at full price, but even selling to a fence for parts is profitable if your acquisition cost is zero.
      - throwawaysleep 4y ago
        Well this is the second level of security that is needed. A phone should not function with any parts from a phone that had the lock.
        nordsieck 4y ago
        > A phone should not function with any parts from a phone that had the lock. That would be extremely expensive to design. Probably impossible. Especially when component level repair ala Louis Rossmann is possible. https://www.youtube.com/@rossmanngroup https://www.youtube.com/@rossmanngroup
        agloe_dreams 4y ago
        At component level, yeah no impossible but for general resale it wouldn't be too hard. I'm pretty sure the Face ID and Touch ID modules already do this. You would need to add some general identifiers to parts with a GUID and at production/official repair time, register those parts to an iPhone S/N. If Activation locked, those parts would need to not be able to be registered to another iphone until the original device is unlocked, thus clearing those parts.
- varjag 4y ago
  When my son's school locker room was burglarized, they didn't bother with iPhones and took higher-end Android devices only. It's precisely the second order effect you want as a user.
  - wrldos 4y ago
    It does work. Someone grabbed my Lumia 830 off me, realised it was a Windows Phone and chucked it in the grass.
- GeekyBear 4y ago
  > Protecting data is perfectly possible without bricking the machine. If it's your machine, it's not bricked. The owner can turn off Activation Lock though a web browser on any machine.
  - Lio 4y ago
    If that's the case then I guess it wouldn't be too much work for Apple to provide a way to contact the original owner and ask them if they would mind it being wiped and reactivated for recycling. I'm sure some percentage of owners would allow that if it was just a click of a button and would help cut down on e-waste. As long as the machine isn't stolen and you know you're not going to expose any data then why not? (...and if it is stolen then the owner can expect the recycler to explain where they got it from and return it.)
    - whstl 4y ago
      "I guess it wouldn't be too much work for Apple to provide a way to contact the original owner" I actually prefer if Apple doesn't provide anyone with a way to contact me, ESPECIALLY if they have something potentially stolen from me.
      - Lio 4y ago
        I wondered how to phrase this and I think I’ve done a bad job based on the downvotes. I don’t mean that Apple allow a third party to contact anyone directly, I agree that that would be terrible. Instead I could see Apple themselves contacting the last known owner to ask permission to wipe and open the laptop for reuse. If that’s not what you want then you tell Apple the once and that’s the end of it. Reuse won’t always be what people want but if a laptop can be repaired and securely reused then that’s much, much more energy efficient than recycling it.
        gls2ro 4y ago
        allowing this would open the possibility of thefts forcing the victims to respond in a specific way thus opening a possibility of violence along with theft. so no to that. the solution to work as deterrent should be final: stolen device = brick device, no other possibility. in the case of solving theft of devices we have to choose the price we want to pay. all solutions are based on various ways to deter the theft. there is no solution to stop the action of theft once started. thus all solutions have a price that could range from false positives (like legit owners being locked out) to waste like theft happens because they dont know that they cannot unlock it without destroying the device.
- uni_rule 4y ago
  [flagged]
- dev_tty01 4y ago
  You just made the argument you are arguing against. A full reset process is provided by the system software that takes care of the issue.
footlose_3815 4y ago
Jamf admin here. 100% working-as-intended and the author has his ear to people who obviously buy and sell stolen laptops.
uni_rule 4y ago
[flagged]
- jen20 4y ago
  It can be, by the owner. Not by a thief.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
s3p 4y ago
Also they could probably send these devices to Apple, who can unlock & refurbish them.
- myrandomcomment 4y ago
  No, Apple cannot unlock the machine and that is the point. No government can compel Apple to decrypt anything. If you trade in an old device with Apple they provide detailed instructions more then once on unlocking and wiping before shipping. If you do not follow them, you do not get your trade in credit.
  - coder543 4y ago
    Apple can remove activation lock, which is the context of "unlock" here. The person you replied to is not talking about decrypting the contents of the laptop. However, Apple chooses not to do this unless they can establish that it is actually your device. Giving trade-in credit for activation locked devices would effectively be giving thieves an easy way to make money off of these otherwise useless devices, so they don't do that to avoid incentivizing theft. It would be cool if Apple offered a program where these activation locked devices could be returned to Apple for free. Apple could contact the last known owner and let them know their device has been recovered. If Apple doesn't hear back from them, then they could wipe the device and sell it as refurbished, or recycle it (depending on how damaged it is). This avoids creating an incentive for thieves to steal, but also overcomes the e-waste argument.
    - myrandomcomment 4y ago
      Thanks for the clarification.

by rhtgrg 4y ago

Vogtinator 4y ago

Protecting data is perfectly possible without bricking the machine. Just wiping the encryption key as part of a full reset is enough for that.

msh 4y ago
But as a owner it's also in my interest that a stolen device cannot be used.
- rchaud 4y ago
  You can already do that on Find my Mac by locking the phone/laptop remotely. Same way as you would when your credit card is stolen; a couple of clicks and no one else can use it.
agloe_dreams 4y ago
It's more than data. Apple's disk encryption already does that on iOS. Activation lock isn't just data protection: It is Anti-theft. The concept was that bricking the hardware if it is stolen would reduce the, at the time, massive rise of theft. Activation lock on iOS (and all kinds of keying hardware to that board) basically shut down cell phone theft as they become worthless. They added the same to MacOS.
- jrockway 4y ago
  Yeah, I haven't heard of someone having their iPhone stolen since about 2015. Killing the illegal resale market with "if you don't know the password, the phone is a brick" is probably the biggest reduction in crime that society has ever experienced.
  - MagnumOpus 4y ago
    > Yeah, I haven't heard of someone having their iPhone stolen since about 2015 You haven't been paying attention then. In London, phone snatching (iPhones preferred) has been and remains an epidemic to the tune of tens of thousands a year - in a single city. They might not be resold at full price, but even selling to a fence for parts is profitable if your acquisition cost is zero.
    - throwawaysleep 4y ago
      Well this is the second level of security that is needed. A phone should not function with any parts from a phone that had the lock.
      - nordsieck 4y ago
        > A phone should not function with any parts from a phone that had the lock. That would be extremely expensive to design. Probably impossible. Especially when component level repair ala Louis Rossmann is possible. https://www.youtube.com/@rossmanngroup https://www.youtube.com/@rossmanngroup
        agloe_dreams 4y ago
        At component level, yeah no impossible but for general resale it wouldn't be too hard. I'm pretty sure the Face ID and Touch ID modules already do this. You would need to add some general identifiers to parts with a GUID and at production/official repair time, register those parts to an iPhone S/N. If Activation locked, those parts would need to not be able to be registered to another iphone until the original device is unlocked, thus clearing those parts.
varjag 4y ago
When my son's school locker room was burglarized, they didn't bother with iPhones and took higher-end Android devices only. It's precisely the second order effect you want as a user.
- wrldos 4y ago
  It does work. Someone grabbed my Lumia 830 off me, realised it was a Windows Phone and chucked it in the grass.
GeekyBear 4y ago
> Protecting data is perfectly possible without bricking the machine. If it's your machine, it's not bricked. The owner can turn off Activation Lock though a web browser on any machine.
- Lio 4y ago
  If that's the case then I guess it wouldn't be too much work for Apple to provide a way to contact the original owner and ask them if they would mind it being wiped and reactivated for recycling. I'm sure some percentage of owners would allow that if it was just a click of a button and would help cut down on e-waste. As long as the machine isn't stolen and you know you're not going to expose any data then why not? (...and if it is stolen then the owner can expect the recycler to explain where they got it from and return it.)
  - whstl 4y ago
    "I guess it wouldn't be too much work for Apple to provide a way to contact the original owner" I actually prefer if Apple doesn't provide anyone with a way to contact me, ESPECIALLY if they have something potentially stolen from me.
    - Lio 4y ago
      I wondered how to phrase this and I think I’ve done a bad job based on the downvotes. I don’t mean that Apple allow a third party to contact anyone directly, I agree that that would be terrible. Instead I could see Apple themselves contacting the last known owner to ask permission to wipe and open the laptop for reuse. If that’s not what you want then you tell Apple the once and that’s the end of it. Reuse won’t always be what people want but if a laptop can be repaired and securely reused then that’s much, much more energy efficient than recycling it.
      - gls2ro 4y ago
        allowing this would open the possibility of thefts forcing the victims to respond in a specific way thus opening a possibility of violence along with theft. so no to that. the solution to work as deterrent should be final: stolen device = brick device, no other possibility. in the case of solving theft of devices we have to choose the price we want to pay. all solutions are based on various ways to deter the theft. there is no solution to stop the action of theft once started. thus all solutions have a price that could range from false positives (like legit owners being locked out) to waste like theft happens because they dont know that they cannot unlock it without destroying the device.
uni_rule 4y ago
[flagged]
dev_tty01 4y ago
You just made the argument you are arguing against. A full reset process is provided by the system software that takes care of the issue.

footlose_3815 4y ago

Jamf admin here. 100% working-as-intended and the author has his ear to people who obviously buy and sell stolen laptops.

uni_rule 4y ago

[flagged]

jen20 4y ago
It can be, by the owner. Not by a thief.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

s3p 4y ago

Also they could probably send these devices to Apple, who can unlock & refurbish them.

myrandomcomment 4y ago
No, Apple cannot unlock the machine and that is the point. No government can compel Apple to decrypt anything. If you trade in an old device with Apple they provide detailed instructions more then once on unlocking and wiping before shipping. If you do not follow them, you do not get your trade in credit.
- coder543 4y ago
  Apple can remove activation lock, which is the context of "unlock" here. The person you replied to is not talking about decrypting the contents of the laptop. However, Apple chooses not to do this unless they can establish that it is actually your device. Giving trade-in credit for activation locked devices would effectively be giving thieves an easy way to make money off of these otherwise useless devices, so they don't do that to avoid incentivizing theft. It would be cool if Apple offered a program where these activation locked devices could be returned to Apple for free. Apple could contact the last known owner and let them know their device has been recovered. If Apple doesn't hear back from them, then they could wipe the device and sell it as refurbished, or recycle it (depending on how damaged it is). This avoids creating an incentive for thieves to steal, but also overcomes the e-waste argument.
  - myrandomcomment 4y ago
    Thanks for the clarification.