4 ms·

Not Germany, but here in The Netherlands the banks just developed an online payment system together 18 years ago, and everyone uses that. https://en.wikipedia.

Not Germany, but here in The Netherlands the banks just developed an online payment system together 18 years ago, and everyone uses that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IDEAL https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IDEAL

ethanbond 4y ago
The Dutch are pathologically practical. Love it. Every time I need to send mail I’m jealous of that whole “write 9 digits in a grid to serve as a stamp” system.
- snowpid 4y ago
  writting a code replaceming stamps do exist in Germany as well :P
  - ethanbond 4y ago
    Oh I have no doubt the US is uniquely behind several countries on this sort of quality of life innovation!
    - drstewart 4y ago
      What makes it "uniquely" behind as opposed to other countries that aren't part of that list of "several"?
      - ethanbond 4y ago
        Being dramatically richer than all of them, mainly
        interactivecode 4y ago
        you can also be richer if you just tax people more. it's a solved problem
    - snowpid 4y ago
      Every country has its flaws.
  - DocTomoe 4y ago
    That works as long as you need a standard stamp. It fails the moment you need to send a letter to overseas.
    - realworldperson 4y ago
      [dead]
- DennisP 4y ago
  I googled "dutch number stamp" and got nothing. How does that work?
  - TacoSteemers 4y ago
    In Dutch: https://www.postnl.nl/versturen/postzegels/postzegels-kopen/postzegelcode/?pst=abzowerkthet https://www.postnl.nl/versturen/postzegels/postzegels-kopen/... You buy a code that you write down in the location where normally the stamp would be.
    - kzrdude 4y ago
      Just for fun, seems easily susceptible to a man-in-the-middle attack. Just take a postcard, copy their code, discard the original card, or just send the original later than the copy. :)
      - Linosaurus 4y ago
        Yes, but then you are stealing mail. Which is bad. For a relatively small payoff.
        interactivecode 4y ago
        stealing mail is also punishable with jail time basically everywhere. they take that stuff seriously
  - ethanbond 4y ago
    I've never used one so someone else can explain better, but my understanding is that you get an envelope and you can use your phone to pre-pay postage online (or maybe set up your card to be charged based on what's required?) and you'll get a 9 digit code back. On the corner of all the envelopes is a 3x3 grid where you write the code and that is read by the postal system as the stamp.
PurpleRamen 4y ago
Germany did that too, multiple times and nobody used them. So they all died. The only really successful system was the EC-Card, which for decades was as popular as Credit Cards in other countries. But it will be dead in some months for reasons, probably because it's too old school?
- DocTomoe 4y ago
  EC cards, when they first came out, were revolutionary and way better than the credit cards of old. Eventually, though they became increasingly unusual, mostly thanks to the internet (no way to pay with them there. They had a hidden creditcard-like number, but you would never know), and are now dying because enough banks have started handing out creditcardesque debit cards which work on the internet. Of course this also meant we lost some 20 years of digital advantage of an universal global payment system. Lessons learned: Technical leadership is nice, but don't think once you are ahead, you'll stay ahead.
  - guenthert 4y ago
    > way better than the credit cards of old They were more secure (no surprise there). The lack of security was known, but the risk was with the vendor who generally accepted it as cost of doing business. With the more secure EC cards like with the new-ish chip-enhanced CC, the (lower, remaining) risk is with the customer. Not sure, whether that is 'better'.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
IMTDb 4y ago
And Belgian have their own system too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bancontact_Payconiq_Company https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bancontact_Payconiq_Company Which means that everyone uses PayPal since it's the solution that you know is going to be accepted everywhere instead of having to juggle between 10 different services.
- c-fe 4y ago
  > Which means that everyone uses PayPal At least in the Netherlands this is not true at all. Everyone here uses iDeal, and if that doesnt work its back to a SEPA bank transfer
  - johannes1234321 4y ago
    iDeal is (maybe) nice for people targeting the Dutch market. But what about somebody targeting larger parts of the European market or global. Or even if just attracting tourists who want to order a Pizza for delivery. Do they have to implement all the different national systems? - PayPal "solves" that.
dna_polymerase 4y ago
iDEAL is truly tremendous. I keep my Dutch Neobank account just to be able to pay stuff with iDEAL. It never fails and works like a charm. Never had a failed payment with it. I don't understand why Germany is incapable of implementing such an easy solution.
- johannes1234321 4y ago
  > I don't understand why Germany is incapable of implementing such an easy solution. Because the interpretation of cartel law and the banking structure makes that complicated. They created "giropay" which is quite complicated as a dealer has to pick a bank to contract with and they get different rates and stuff as they couldn't simply create a shared company running it or something ...
- KingOfCoders 4y ago
  "I don't understand why Germany is incapable of implementing such an easy solution." The main problem in Germany is that banks "for the masses" (oversimplified) are "state owned" or cooperatives. Both are organized on a city level. Both are notorious for not cooperating. Plus the state owned banks usually have politicians at the top (E.g. the major of the city the bank is in). For a system that works across Germany you would need a high level of cooperation. In the 90s when I was a Sparkasse ("state owned") customer studying in Baden Wurttemberg but having my Bank in Bavaria, I needed to go to Bavaria to get money and account statements every time, the Sparkasse in Baden Wurttemberg would not cooperate with the one in Bavaria. Not sure, it might be an outcome of federalism which is (was) a way to prevent the 4th Reich.
  - hocuspocus 4y ago
    I don't really buy it, the situation in Switzerland is similar but that doesn't stop bigger banks from driving innovation. For instance if the Cash Group banks came together behind a mobile and online payment solution, the Sparkasse would need to follow suit.
- hocuspocus 4y ago
  I believe the Austrian equivalent is compatible with German banks, but somehow it never took off. https://bluecode.com https://bluecode.com
nikeee 4y ago
In Germany, there is "giropay" [1], which is a service offered by most banks. The Wikipedia article states that it's similar to iDEAL. Giropay is some kind of federalized solution where you enter your BIC on a landing page and get redirected to the interface of your local bank to complete the purchase. It isn't well supported, except at some unexpected sites like Ali Express. [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giropay https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giropay
- Tomte 4y ago
  giropay is a merger of three different bank-developed systems. And it shows. Because banks generally don't support all features, only the ones they already used to support. My bank, for example, does not support person-to-person transfers, only online payment at web shops.

ethanbond 4y ago

The Dutch are pathologically practical. Love it. Every time I need to send mail I’m jealous of that whole “write 9 digits in a grid to serve as a stamp” system.

snowpid 4y ago
writting a code replaceming stamps do exist in Germany as well :P
- ethanbond 4y ago
  Oh I have no doubt the US is uniquely behind several countries on this sort of quality of life innovation!
  - drstewart 4y ago
    What makes it "uniquely" behind as opposed to other countries that aren't part of that list of "several"?
    - ethanbond 4y ago
      Being dramatically richer than all of them, mainly
      - interactivecode 4y ago
        you can also be richer if you just tax people more. it's a solved problem
  - snowpid 4y ago
    Every country has its flaws.
- DocTomoe 4y ago
  That works as long as you need a standard stamp. It fails the moment you need to send a letter to overseas.
  - realworldperson 4y ago
    [dead]
DennisP 4y ago
I googled "dutch number stamp" and got nothing. How does that work?
- TacoSteemers 4y ago
  In Dutch: https://www.postnl.nl/versturen/postzegels/postzegels-kopen/postzegelcode/?pst=abzowerkthet https://www.postnl.nl/versturen/postzegels/postzegels-kopen/... You buy a code that you write down in the location where normally the stamp would be.
  - kzrdude 4y ago
    Just for fun, seems easily susceptible to a man-in-the-middle attack. Just take a postcard, copy their code, discard the original card, or just send the original later than the copy. :)
    - Linosaurus 4y ago
      Yes, but then you are stealing mail. Which is bad. For a relatively small payoff.
      - interactivecode 4y ago
        stealing mail is also punishable with jail time basically everywhere. they take that stuff seriously
- ethanbond 4y ago
  I've never used one so someone else can explain better, but my understanding is that you get an envelope and you can use your phone to pre-pay postage online (or maybe set up your card to be charged based on what's required?) and you'll get a 9 digit code back. On the corner of all the envelopes is a 3x3 grid where you write the code and that is read by the postal system as the stamp.

PurpleRamen 4y ago

Germany did that too, multiple times and nobody used them. So they all died. The only really successful system was the EC-Card, which for decades was as popular as Credit Cards in other countries. But it will be dead in some months for reasons, probably because it's too old school?

DocTomoe 4y ago
EC cards, when they first came out, were revolutionary and way better than the credit cards of old. Eventually, though they became increasingly unusual, mostly thanks to the internet (no way to pay with them there. They had a hidden creditcard-like number, but you would never know), and are now dying because enough banks have started handing out creditcardesque debit cards which work on the internet. Of course this also meant we lost some 20 years of digital advantage of an universal global payment system. Lessons learned: Technical leadership is nice, but don't think once you are ahead, you'll stay ahead.
- guenthert 4y ago
  > way better than the credit cards of old They were more secure (no surprise there). The lack of security was known, but the risk was with the vendor who generally accepted it as cost of doing business. With the more secure EC cards like with the new-ish chip-enhanced CC, the (lower, remaining) risk is with the customer. Not sure, whether that is 'better'.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

IMTDb 4y ago

And Belgian have their own system too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bancontact_Payconiq_Company https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bancontact_Payconiq_Company Which means that everyone uses PayPal since it's the solution that you know is going to be accepted everywhere instead of having to juggle between 10 different services.

c-fe 4y ago
> Which means that everyone uses PayPal At least in the Netherlands this is not true at all. Everyone here uses iDeal, and if that doesnt work its back to a SEPA bank transfer
- johannes1234321 4y ago
  iDeal is (maybe) nice for people targeting the Dutch market. But what about somebody targeting larger parts of the European market or global. Or even if just attracting tourists who want to order a Pizza for delivery. Do they have to implement all the different national systems? - PayPal "solves" that.

dna_polymerase 4y ago

iDEAL is truly tremendous. I keep my Dutch Neobank account just to be able to pay stuff with iDEAL. It never fails and works like a charm. Never had a failed payment with it. I don't understand why Germany is incapable of implementing such an easy solution.

johannes1234321 4y ago
> I don't understand why Germany is incapable of implementing such an easy solution. Because the interpretation of cartel law and the banking structure makes that complicated. They created "giropay" which is quite complicated as a dealer has to pick a bank to contract with and they get different rates and stuff as they couldn't simply create a shared company running it or something ...
KingOfCoders 4y ago
"I don't understand why Germany is incapable of implementing such an easy solution." The main problem in Germany is that banks "for the masses" (oversimplified) are "state owned" or cooperatives. Both are organized on a city level. Both are notorious for not cooperating. Plus the state owned banks usually have politicians at the top (E.g. the major of the city the bank is in). For a system that works across Germany you would need a high level of cooperation. In the 90s when I was a Sparkasse ("state owned") customer studying in Baden Wurttemberg but having my Bank in Bavaria, I needed to go to Bavaria to get money and account statements every time, the Sparkasse in Baden Wurttemberg would not cooperate with the one in Bavaria. Not sure, it might be an outcome of federalism which is (was) a way to prevent the 4th Reich.
- hocuspocus 4y ago
  I don't really buy it, the situation in Switzerland is similar but that doesn't stop bigger banks from driving innovation. For instance if the Cash Group banks came together behind a mobile and online payment solution, the Sparkasse would need to follow suit.
hocuspocus 4y ago
I believe the Austrian equivalent is compatible with German banks, but somehow it never took off. https://bluecode.com https://bluecode.com

nikeee 4y ago

In Germany, there is "giropay" [1], which is a service offered by most banks. The Wikipedia article states that it's similar to iDEAL. Giropay is some kind of federalized solution where you enter your BIC on a landing page and get redirected to the interface of your local bank to complete the purchase. It isn't well supported, except at some unexpected sites like Ali Express. [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giropay https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giropay

Tomte 4y ago
giropay is a merger of three different bank-developed systems. And it shows. Because banks generally don't support all features, only the ones they already used to support. My bank, for example, does not support person-to-person transfers, only online payment at web shops.