4 ms·

Are you suggesting that people shouldn't use it since it has a small market share, and thus should allow it to get smaller until it dies out?

lelandfe 4y ago
Moreso that Safari truly is the only bastion against Chrome’s hegemony.
- mtomweb 4y ago
  Safari is not competing. It only runs on MacOS and iOS. It doesn't compete on Linux, Windows or Android. - It comes last out of the three major browser engines in feature support. - It has the most number of bugs out of the three engines. - It has the worst support for Web Apps. Apple has deprived the Safari/Webkit team of funding for the past decade. Safari places no competitive pressure on chrome, and has deprived Mozilla and thus Firefox of 100's of millions of dollars in search engine revenue. Apple has done untold damage to the web and this needs to be fixed.
  - rvz 4y ago
    Firefox is almost no where to be found and hardly has anything to bring to fight against Chrome [0]. In fact, Mozilla is on life support with Google's money with the Mozilla CEO being the one laughing all the way to the bank as Firefox continues to be irrelevant. Safari (WebKit) is the only one competing against the Chrome ecosystem, especially on mobile devices market. The EU Digital Markets Act will just declare Chrome the winner and will increase Chrome's dominance and will make Mozilla even more irrelevant. [0] https://gs.statcounter.com/ https://gs.statcounter.com/
    - TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
      [flagged]
  - forgetfulness 4y ago
    The point is that, even with all those flaws, developers have to target at least two browsers instead of just building for Chrome. The force keeping Safari afloat is not the one keeping Firefox down, the problem is that Firefox has nothing to drive up its adoption. Telling people that they're "free" to use Firefox and see as the web is swallowed whole by Google with Chrome, like MS did with IE, is missing the point so badly.
    - izacus 4y ago
      You're talking about lack of competition while defending corporate mandated lack of competition and undermining of the web. That's not how this works.
      - forgetfulness 4y ago
        Unless you think of another solution, when the "it" is the web, we have nothing else that works, because antitrust regulators won't come down hard enough on Google for leveraging its dominant position in search and mail to corner the browser market, and use it as an ad delivery platform. Sent from my Firefox install.
  - Klonoar 4y ago
    Running on Windows/Linux/Android fundamentally does not matter. Market share does.
  - robertoandred 4y ago
    Incorrect, Safari leads the pack on new feature support.
- postalrat 4y ago
  Safari seems to rather build their own web then obey standards that both firefox and chrome are following. They are in many ways worse than chrome.
  - kitsunesoba 4y ago
    But at the same time, there have been several cases where Mozilla and Apple have been on the same page in terms of feelings on a particular feature/change. In one of those cases Google bulldozed through and did their own thing anyway (see WebUSB).
  - robertoandred 4y ago
    Incorrect, Safari leads the pack on new feature support.
  - lelandfe 4y ago
    This is a very uncharitable assessment. They drag their feet on API support but they're still a part of the interop group and actually were more conformant by the end of last year on the targeted features than Chrome: https://wpt.fyi/interop-2022 https://wpt.fyi/interop-2022 There's a case to be made that they handicap PWA features, but I don't see their team directly implementing features incorrectly.
  - dmitriid 4y ago
    > Safari seems to rather build their own web then obey standards that both firefox and chrome are following wat. Firefox and Safari are more closely aligned on standards support than Chrome which pushes its own non-standards aggressively
Karunamon 4y ago
As it becomes more of a niche, also-ran browser, you can expect its quality (and so, its security) to fall as well. The "use an inferior tool for philosophical reasons" mindset is already pretty unconvincing for me. A chromium fork maintained by a pro-user, pro-privacy team is the best of both worlds and doesn't expose you to Mozilla's fad-chasing.
- Keegs 4y ago
  Firefox is not an “inferior tool.” Its cookie segregation and CSS styling feature are not found in Chrome. I don’t use Firefox for moral reasons, I use it because it’s better.
  - iggldiggl 4y ago
    Plus much as I'm very much and definitively unhappy about a lot of directions and decisions taken by the Firefox developers, Chrome's (and Edge's, too) address bar search alone is a no-go – it's positively amnesiac and frequently (with no discernible rhyme or reason) doesn't return even pages I've recently visited and that are definitively still in my browser history (and it's not for lack of space to display the results, because often it returns no local results at all!).
    - Karunamon 4y ago
      This is exactly the kind of problem that is a fork can solve when the upstream project can't or won't. I haven't used Chrome in years, but I do not notice the problem you describe in Brave.
- Lalabadie 4y ago
  This is assuming that their funding is dependent on their share of browser use, or that Mozilla would get bored of Firefox if it stays at a lower share, and move on to other projects. These assumptions would be true of a for-profit entity like Google, Apple, Microsoft, but it's not as directly applicable to Mozilla.
  - 4y ago
uoaei 4y ago
"The rich should get richer" is a common reasoning implement for the rich.

lelandfe 4y ago

Moreso that Safari truly is the only bastion against Chrome’s hegemony.

mtomweb 4y ago
Safari is not competing. It only runs on MacOS and iOS. It doesn't compete on Linux, Windows or Android. - It comes last out of the three major browser engines in feature support. - It has the most number of bugs out of the three engines. - It has the worst support for Web Apps. Apple has deprived the Safari/Webkit team of funding for the past decade. Safari places no competitive pressure on chrome, and has deprived Mozilla and thus Firefox of 100's of millions of dollars in search engine revenue. Apple has done untold damage to the web and this needs to be fixed.
- rvz 4y ago
  Firefox is almost no where to be found and hardly has anything to bring to fight against Chrome [0]. In fact, Mozilla is on life support with Google's money with the Mozilla CEO being the one laughing all the way to the bank as Firefox continues to be irrelevant. Safari (WebKit) is the only one competing against the Chrome ecosystem, especially on mobile devices market. The EU Digital Markets Act will just declare Chrome the winner and will increase Chrome's dominance and will make Mozilla even more irrelevant. [0] https://gs.statcounter.com/ https://gs.statcounter.com/
  - TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
    [flagged]
- forgetfulness 4y ago
  The point is that, even with all those flaws, developers have to target at least two browsers instead of just building for Chrome. The force keeping Safari afloat is not the one keeping Firefox down, the problem is that Firefox has nothing to drive up its adoption. Telling people that they're "free" to use Firefox and see as the web is swallowed whole by Google with Chrome, like MS did with IE, is missing the point so badly.
  - izacus 4y ago
    You're talking about lack of competition while defending corporate mandated lack of competition and undermining of the web. That's not how this works.
    - forgetfulness 4y ago
      Unless you think of another solution, when the "it" is the web, we have nothing else that works, because antitrust regulators won't come down hard enough on Google for leveraging its dominant position in search and mail to corner the browser market, and use it as an ad delivery platform. Sent from my Firefox install.
- Klonoar 4y ago
  Running on Windows/Linux/Android fundamentally does not matter. Market share does.
- robertoandred 4y ago
  Incorrect, Safari leads the pack on new feature support.
postalrat 4y ago
Safari seems to rather build their own web then obey standards that both firefox and chrome are following. They are in many ways worse than chrome.
- kitsunesoba 4y ago
  But at the same time, there have been several cases where Mozilla and Apple have been on the same page in terms of feelings on a particular feature/change. In one of those cases Google bulldozed through and did their own thing anyway (see WebUSB).
- robertoandred 4y ago
  Incorrect, Safari leads the pack on new feature support.
- lelandfe 4y ago
  This is a very uncharitable assessment. They drag their feet on API support but they're still a part of the interop group and actually were more conformant by the end of last year on the targeted features than Chrome: https://wpt.fyi/interop-2022 https://wpt.fyi/interop-2022 There's a case to be made that they handicap PWA features, but I don't see their team directly implementing features incorrectly.
- dmitriid 4y ago
  > Safari seems to rather build their own web then obey standards that both firefox and chrome are following wat. Firefox and Safari are more closely aligned on standards support than Chrome which pushes its own non-standards aggressively

Karunamon 4y ago

As it becomes more of a niche, also-ran browser, you can expect its quality (and so, its security) to fall as well. The "use an inferior tool for philosophical reasons" mindset is already pretty unconvincing for me. A chromium fork maintained by a pro-user, pro-privacy team is the best of both worlds and doesn't expose you to Mozilla's fad-chasing.

Keegs 4y ago
Firefox is not an “inferior tool.” Its cookie segregation and CSS styling feature are not found in Chrome. I don’t use Firefox for moral reasons, I use it because it’s better.
- iggldiggl 4y ago
  Plus much as I'm very much and definitively unhappy about a lot of directions and decisions taken by the Firefox developers, Chrome's (and Edge's, too) address bar search alone is a no-go – it's positively amnesiac and frequently (with no discernible rhyme or reason) doesn't return even pages I've recently visited and that are definitively still in my browser history (and it's not for lack of space to display the results, because often it returns no local results at all!).
  - Karunamon 4y ago
    This is exactly the kind of problem that is a fork can solve when the upstream project can't or won't. I haven't used Chrome in years, but I do not notice the problem you describe in Brave.
Lalabadie 4y ago
This is assuming that their funding is dependent on their share of browser use, or that Mozilla would get bored of Firefox if it stays at a lower share, and move on to other projects. These assumptions would be true of a for-profit entity like Google, Apple, Microsoft, but it's not as directly applicable to Mozilla.
- 4y ago

uoaei 4y ago

"The rich should get richer" is a common reasoning implement for the rich.