6 ms·

The moment iOS is forced to give browser freedom, chrome has won. It will be a sad day for sure.

mtomweb 4y ago
Already passed in the EU. Recommended in Japan, Australia and the UK. Apple is not the company fighting for the web or browser diversity, they are the ones holding back.
- sbuk 4y ago
  How? Other than Gecko (Firefox), there is just Blink, which is owned and controlled by Google, and full of proprietary extensions that many here like to claim are standards. WebKit is sadly the last hope for an open web. Pushing for Chrome now is like pushing for IE/Trident in the naughties.
  - mtomweb 4y ago
    https://open-web-advocacy.org/walled-gardens-report/#the-chromium-argument https://open-web-advocacy.org/walled-gardens-report/#the-chr...
  - rvz 4y ago
    Firefox had its chance to push back again the Chrome dominance. It survived against IE and became the dominant browser for a short time over IE but allowed Chrome to take over and eat its lunch. Now Firefox is declining into irrelevance. The EU Digital Markets Act demands for Apple to open up to more browsers with just cement Chrome's dominance and make Firefox even more irrelevant.
    - acdha 4y ago
      “Allowed” is an interesting way to describe being the target of hundreds of millions of dollars in advertising and heavy promotion on several of the most popular websites in the world.
      - rvz 4y ago
        Yes. 'Allowed'. After Mozilla claiming they can live without Google's money and knowing that they could not 14 years later. [0] Then getting itself sabotaged by Google for years [1] to be overtaken as the browser with the largest market share. With Firefox's declining usage and market share, they are essentially on life support with Google's money since they know they would be completely irrelevant without it. It appears that [0] has not aged well at all. [0] https://web.archive.org/web/20120105090543/https://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9044160/Mozilla_can_live_without_Google_s_money_Baker_says_ https://web.archive.org/web/20120105090543/https://www.compu... [1] https://www.zdnet.com/article/former-mozilla-exec-google-has-sabotaged-firefox-for-years/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/former-mozilla-exec-google-has...
  - izacus 4y ago
    There is no "Gecko" on Apple platforms because you keep defending monopolistic lockout. It's utterly bizarre to defend megacorporation by scaremongering with a browser that isn't allowed to exist.
    - artificial 4y ago
      If there is no "Gecko" on Apple platforms which engine does Firefox use on macOs?
    - sbuk 4y ago
      Funny, the gecko base web browser on my mac must be my imagination.
    - girvo 4y ago
      The Firefox I've been running on my Mac for 15 years at this point must be a figment of my imagination. Of course I would love to see Gecko running on iOS. I just don't like the possibility of Google's browser dominance become even stronger either. It's a hard one.
    - the_other 4y ago
      I use Firefox on macOS all day every day. It's definitely Gecko on an Apple platform. This monopoly you're talking about doesn't exist: it's two operating systems on two types of device. I understand your frustration that you can't use the browser you want on the devices you want. That is annoying. However, *now* is the wrong time to go after Apple. Get more people using other browsers on other platforms first. Wikipedia suggests this breakdown: > As of November 2022, Android, an operating system using the Linux kernel, is the world's most-used operating system when judged by web use. It has 42% of the global market, followed by Windows with 30%, Apple iOS with 18%, macOS with 6%, then (desktop) Linux at 1.0% also using the Linux kernel.[1][2] These numbers do not include embedded devices or game consoles. (from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_syste... ) Android and Windows make up 4x the number of iOS users on the web. When the % of Chrome users on those platforms goes down, and Firefox and others go up, to a level where any of them could temporarily steer the direction the HTML/W3C standards take, _that's_ the time to go after Apple. Until then, lean on the fence Apple are holding up for you (and getting Google to pay for).
rs_rs_rs_rs_rs 4y ago
>The moment iOS is forced to give browser freedom, chrome has won. ...because Chrome is a much better browser? That's what you're trying to say?
- snowwrestler 4y ago
  Chrome will become the better browser for Google services, because Google will intentionally degrade them on other browsers. This is not theoretical, the playbook is obvious and has been run before, by Microsoft.
  - izacus 4y ago
    Chrome will only be the better browser if Apple refuses to improve their own. This is how free market competition works - best browser wins. You're now demanding to be forever locked into an inferior corporate owned product because you're utterly afraid that the better product would win. It's insane.
    - snowwrestler 4y ago
      This is just really naive. When Google controls the back-end and front-end, they can introduce custom functionality that simply will not run in an alternate browser, no matter how good it is. Microsoft did this extensively in IE.
      - izacus 4y ago
        No, shilling for a megacorp monopoly to keep back the web because you hate another browser is naive.
        snowwrestler 4y ago
        I honestly do not understand the mental gymnastics that allow people to not count Google as (also) a megacorp. The situation is not “Apple good, Google bad” or vice versa. The benefit of the current situation is that places these two huge companies in direct opposition and competition in the browser space. Using the law to force Apple to lose would take that away and cede the entire Web to Google’s control, thereby actually creating a monopoly.
izacus 4y ago
That is absolute nonsense. IE hasn't won either (despite its dominance), BECAUSE you could choose another browser. This is why free markets work and command economies don't.
- snowwrestler 4y ago
  The current browser approach on iPhones was created in a free market. Using the law to force Apple to run Google software would be an example of a command economy.
  - izacus 4y ago
    No, allowing Apple to lockout all competitors to their browsers (and letting them keep gatekeeping even skins on top of their browsers) is command economy. It outright prevents existence of new browsers and competition and it's a flagship examples of monopolistic corporations killing innovation and competition. You yourself admitted that free market was required for current iPhone browser to exist and Apple locked out free market.
    - snowwrestler 4y ago
      You’re just mistaken about basic economic terminology.
    - the_other 4y ago
      > It outright prevents existence of new browsers and competition and it's a flagship examples of monopolistic corporations killing innovation and competition. No it doesn't. Tens of new browsers appear on multiple platforms every year, in parallel with Apple's approach. All of them fail to gain significant market share, and most of them are based on Blink. The bigger obstacle for browser innovation is the complexity of making a modern browser. That complexity is actually partly driven by developers demanding constant feature expansion in browsers. It's been great having web apps explode, but also that makes browsers fiendishly complex.
    - girvo 4y ago

Already passed in the EU. Recommended in Japan, Australia and the UK. Apple is not the company fighting for the web or browser diversity, they are the ones holding back.

sbuk 4y ago
How? Other than Gecko (Firefox), there is just Blink, which is owned and controlled by Google, and full of proprietary extensions that many here like to claim are standards. WebKit is sadly the last hope for an open web. Pushing for Chrome now is like pushing for IE/Trident in the naughties.
- mtomweb 4y ago
  https://open-web-advocacy.org/walled-gardens-report/#the-chromium-argument https://open-web-advocacy.org/walled-gardens-report/#the-chr...
- rvz 4y ago
  Firefox had its chance to push back again the Chrome dominance. It survived against IE and became the dominant browser for a short time over IE but allowed Chrome to take over and eat its lunch. Now Firefox is declining into irrelevance. The EU Digital Markets Act demands for Apple to open up to more browsers with just cement Chrome's dominance and make Firefox even more irrelevant.
  - acdha 4y ago
    “Allowed” is an interesting way to describe being the target of hundreds of millions of dollars in advertising and heavy promotion on several of the most popular websites in the world.
    - rvz 4y ago
      Yes. 'Allowed'. After Mozilla claiming they can live without Google's money and knowing that they could not 14 years later. [0] Then getting itself sabotaged by Google for years [1] to be overtaken as the browser with the largest market share. With Firefox's declining usage and market share, they are essentially on life support with Google's money since they know they would be completely irrelevant without it. It appears that [0] has not aged well at all. [0] https://web.archive.org/web/20120105090543/https://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9044160/Mozilla_can_live_without_Google_s_money_Baker_says_ https://web.archive.org/web/20120105090543/https://www.compu... [1] https://www.zdnet.com/article/former-mozilla-exec-google-has-sabotaged-firefox-for-years/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/former-mozilla-exec-google-has...
- izacus 4y ago
  There is no "Gecko" on Apple platforms because you keep defending monopolistic lockout. It's utterly bizarre to defend megacorporation by scaremongering with a browser that isn't allowed to exist.
  - artificial 4y ago
    If there is no "Gecko" on Apple platforms which engine does Firefox use on macOs?
  - sbuk 4y ago
    Funny, the gecko base web browser on my mac must be my imagination.
  - girvo 4y ago
    The Firefox I've been running on my Mac for 15 years at this point must be a figment of my imagination. Of course I would love to see Gecko running on iOS. I just don't like the possibility of Google's browser dominance become even stronger either. It's a hard one.
  - the_other 4y ago
    I use Firefox on macOS all day every day. It's definitely Gecko on an Apple platform. This monopoly you're talking about doesn't exist: it's two operating systems on two types of device. I understand your frustration that you can't use the browser you want on the devices you want. That is annoying. However, *now* is the wrong time to go after Apple. Get more people using other browsers on other platforms first. Wikipedia suggests this breakdown: > As of November 2022, Android, an operating system using the Linux kernel, is the world's most-used operating system when judged by web use. It has 42% of the global market, followed by Windows with 30%, Apple iOS with 18%, macOS with 6%, then (desktop) Linux at 1.0% also using the Linux kernel.[1][2] These numbers do not include embedded devices or game consoles. (from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_syste... ) Android and Windows make up 4x the number of iOS users on the web. When the % of Chrome users on those platforms goes down, and Firefox and others go up, to a level where any of them could temporarily steer the direction the HTML/W3C standards take, _that's_ the time to go after Apple. Until then, lean on the fence Apple are holding up for you (and getting Google to pay for).

rs_rs_rs_rs_rs 4y ago

>The moment iOS is forced to give browser freedom, chrome has won. ...because Chrome is a much better browser? That's what you're trying to say?

snowwrestler 4y ago
Chrome will become the better browser for Google services, because Google will intentionally degrade them on other browsers. This is not theoretical, the playbook is obvious and has been run before, by Microsoft.
- izacus 4y ago
  Chrome will only be the better browser if Apple refuses to improve their own. This is how free market competition works - best browser wins. You're now demanding to be forever locked into an inferior corporate owned product because you're utterly afraid that the better product would win. It's insane.
  - snowwrestler 4y ago
    This is just really naive. When Google controls the back-end and front-end, they can introduce custom functionality that simply will not run in an alternate browser, no matter how good it is. Microsoft did this extensively in IE.
    - izacus 4y ago
      No, shilling for a megacorp monopoly to keep back the web because you hate another browser is naive.
      - snowwrestler 4y ago
        I honestly do not understand the mental gymnastics that allow people to not count Google as (also) a megacorp. The situation is not “Apple good, Google bad” or vice versa. The benefit of the current situation is that places these two huge companies in direct opposition and competition in the browser space. Using the law to force Apple to lose would take that away and cede the entire Web to Google’s control, thereby actually creating a monopoly.

izacus 4y ago

That is absolute nonsense. IE hasn't won either (despite its dominance), BECAUSE you could choose another browser. This is why free markets work and command economies don't.

snowwrestler 4y ago
The current browser approach on iPhones was created in a free market. Using the law to force Apple to run Google software would be an example of a command economy.
- izacus 4y ago
  No, allowing Apple to lockout all competitors to their browsers (and letting them keep gatekeeping even skins on top of their browsers) is command economy. It outright prevents existence of new browsers and competition and it's a flagship examples of monopolistic corporations killing innovation and competition. You yourself admitted that free market was required for current iPhone browser to exist and Apple locked out free market.
  - snowwrestler 4y ago
    You’re just mistaken about basic economic terminology.
  - the_other 4y ago
    > It outright prevents existence of new browsers and competition and it's a flagship examples of monopolistic corporations killing innovation and competition. No it doesn't. Tens of new browsers appear on multiple platforms every year, in parallel with Apple's approach. All of them fail to gain significant market share, and most of them are based on Blink. The bigger obstacle for browser innovation is the complexity of making a modern browser. That complexity is actually partly driven by developers demanding constant feature expansion in browsers. It's been great having web apps explode, but also that makes browsers fiendishly complex.
  - girvo 4y ago