4 ms·

> to go up substantially to cover what that person made with tips more realistically, unless they are capable of finding another job that will pay as much the

by ztrww 4y ago

> to go up substantially to cover what that person made with tips more realistically, unless they are capable of finding another job that will pay as much they’ll just end up earning less without tips.

FrontierPsych 4y ago
Sure. Of course. But what they found in restaurants that had the no-tip policy is that all of their really great staff found better paying jobs easily, and the shitty employees, or new employees, would be the ones that stayed. And the new employees would leave as soon as they were trained up, so all that was left at the no-tip restaurants were the shittiest of the shitty employees. This is what I read from a study on this exact situation of no-tip restaurants and the effect it had.
lostlogin 4y ago
Legal minimum wages which are a living wage seems like something that should be a bare minimum.
- collyw 4y ago
  How do you fell about internships? I generally think those are a good thing. Those are often below minimum wage jobs. Then again, I am not in favor of say Amazon workers being exploited with very poorly paid jobs and conditions for their source of income over the long term. (Thomas Sowell gives some good arguments against minimum wage - I am on the fence and it boils down to "it depends").
  - gambiting 4y ago
    >>How do you fell about internships? I generally think those are a good thing. Massively against them if they aren't paid like any normal job. If the intern is doing actual productive work(and let's not kid ourselves - they are most of the time), then they should be paid like any other employee. The only exception I can see is companies that have training programmes with vocational schools, where you go and work somewhere for say 2 years training to be a carpenter or a plumber or electrician or whatever - then it's no different than being at school and learning. But I'd wager than 99% of internships are not like that, they are just a very cheap way to get unpaid(or poorly paid) labour under the pretense of "giving young people work experience". It's nonsense.
    - collyw 4y ago
      I graduated during the dotcom bust, and the best thing I did was taking a temporary job at pretty much minimal wage. As soon as I had some experience on my CV, I got a lot more interviews afterwards. I am in agreement that apprenticeships seem to be a good thing that we should reintroduce. Working in IT, real world experience seems to count at least as much as anything I learned on university. The only times I have needed to implement a sort algorithm is for interviews.
      - gambiting 4y ago
        >> I did was taking a temporary job at pretty much minimal wage. That's fine then. I specifically mean internships which either don't pay anything or which pay some token amount like $100 a week for fuel expenses. If they pay a minimum wage then well, they are basic level entry jobs, that's fine.
    - bluGill 4y ago
      An intern can only be unpaid if they are not doing productive work and you have a trainer with them. Most unpaid internships are illegal already, but the interns don't know they can/should report it. If you are an intern in a railroad you can move cars around the yard all day: you can move them to a loading dock, or to make up a larger set for a train, but at the end of the day you must move them back. However if any of those cars are moved to the dock are loaded/unloaded, or the larger train they just made leaves the yard, then they did useful work and must be paid for that.
      - gambiting 4y ago
        >>An intern can only be unpaid if they are not doing productive work and you have a trainer with them. I mean yes, but like you yourself acknowledged - that's a completely meaningless law. No intern is going to report this, because young people are just happy to have a job, no one wants to destroy their career right at the start. I myself was in that exact same position when I started - as an intern, my contract specifically said I can't be doing any productive work. Of course I did anyway. And I'm sure it still happens in every industry, because.....why wouldn't it. That's why I think unpaid internships just shouldn't be a thing at all, anywhere, unless linked to vocational schools that oversee them as a training programme.
calgoo 4y ago
As i mentioned above, do they pay taxes on those tips? Are they logged so the IRS are aware of them? Could this be accounting for some of the difference?
- williamcotton 4y ago
  Yes, and waiters are lightning rods for audits.

by ztrww 4y ago

FrontierPsych 4y ago

Sure. Of course. But what they found in restaurants that had the no-tip policy is that all of their really great staff found better paying jobs easily, and the shitty employees, or new employees, would be the ones that stayed. And the new employees would leave as soon as they were trained up, so all that was left at the no-tip restaurants were the shittiest of the shitty employees. This is what I read from a study on this exact situation of no-tip restaurants and the effect it had.

lostlogin 4y ago

Legal minimum wages which are a living wage seems like something that should be a bare minimum.

collyw 4y ago
How do you fell about internships? I generally think those are a good thing. Those are often below minimum wage jobs. Then again, I am not in favor of say Amazon workers being exploited with very poorly paid jobs and conditions for their source of income over the long term. (Thomas Sowell gives some good arguments against minimum wage - I am on the fence and it boils down to "it depends").
- gambiting 4y ago
  >>How do you fell about internships? I generally think those are a good thing. Massively against them if they aren't paid like any normal job. If the intern is doing actual productive work(and let's not kid ourselves - they are most of the time), then they should be paid like any other employee. The only exception I can see is companies that have training programmes with vocational schools, where you go and work somewhere for say 2 years training to be a carpenter or a plumber or electrician or whatever - then it's no different than being at school and learning. But I'd wager than 99% of internships are not like that, they are just a very cheap way to get unpaid(or poorly paid) labour under the pretense of "giving young people work experience". It's nonsense.
  - collyw 4y ago
    I graduated during the dotcom bust, and the best thing I did was taking a temporary job at pretty much minimal wage. As soon as I had some experience on my CV, I got a lot more interviews afterwards. I am in agreement that apprenticeships seem to be a good thing that we should reintroduce. Working in IT, real world experience seems to count at least as much as anything I learned on university. The only times I have needed to implement a sort algorithm is for interviews.
    - gambiting 4y ago
      >> I did was taking a temporary job at pretty much minimal wage. That's fine then. I specifically mean internships which either don't pay anything or which pay some token amount like $100 a week for fuel expenses. If they pay a minimum wage then well, they are basic level entry jobs, that's fine.
  - bluGill 4y ago
    An intern can only be unpaid if they are not doing productive work and you have a trainer with them. Most unpaid internships are illegal already, but the interns don't know they can/should report it. If you are an intern in a railroad you can move cars around the yard all day: you can move them to a loading dock, or to make up a larger set for a train, but at the end of the day you must move them back. However if any of those cars are moved to the dock are loaded/unloaded, or the larger train they just made leaves the yard, then they did useful work and must be paid for that.
    - gambiting 4y ago
      >>An intern can only be unpaid if they are not doing productive work and you have a trainer with them. I mean yes, but like you yourself acknowledged - that's a completely meaningless law. No intern is going to report this, because young people are just happy to have a job, no one wants to destroy their career right at the start. I myself was in that exact same position when I started - as an intern, my contract specifically said I can't be doing any productive work. Of course I did anyway. And I'm sure it still happens in every industry, because.....why wouldn't it. That's why I think unpaid internships just shouldn't be a thing at all, anywhere, unless linked to vocational schools that oversee them as a training programme.

calgoo 4y ago

As i mentioned above, do they pay taxes on those tips? Are they logged so the IRS are aware of them? Could this be accounting for some of the difference?

williamcotton 4y ago
Yes, and waiters are lightning rods for audits.