7 ms·

There are huge problems with immigration in France and it's been a growing problem for the past 40 years. But contrarely to what people think, crime isn't IMHO

by bsaul 4y ago

There are huge problems with immigration in France and it's been a growing problem for the past 40 years. But contrarely to what people think, crime isn't IMHO the worst of them. The worst is the feeling that the cultural norm of the country, as well as its "visual" identity has shifted from a european country to a (mostly) african one ( and please read the rest before making hasty judgments on what i'm saying). To understand the problem, imagine going to a few remote rural areas in japan in 40 years and each time only see tall 7 feet blond and blue eyes people, speaking swedish and not finding sushis or ramen anywhere. I like all cultures, and i believe there's great things everywhere, but that's why i'm also a bit sad to see "traditional" France (whatever that means) disappear.

kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
Being reverse colonized must really suck. Almost as bad as the people who were originally trampled by French boots.
- ztrww 4y ago
  all of those countries must have been utopian wonderlands before the French came…
  - cm2187 4y ago
    ...and after they left.
- bsaul 4y ago
  i'm not sure if your comment means you're looking forward to support the "anti-colonizers" side in a potential upcoming civil war ?
wikfwikf 4y ago
"the cultural norm of the country, as well as its "visual" identity has shifted from a european country to a (mostly) african one" This is delusional, and yes, I did read the rest of your comment.
- bsaul 4y ago
  not a native english so i'm not sure what you mean by delusional ? We can't legally compile ethnics statistics in France, so all we have to rely on is our personal feeling, which is of course very subjective ( and this has been the counter argument to my type of argument for a very long time). But it has reached such a level now that nobody is contesting that diagnosis. People give it different names depending on their political orientation ( "creolisation" for the left, "grand remplacement" for the right), but it's basically the same conclusion.
  - mrguyorama 4y ago
    >We can't legally compile ethnics statistics in France This is bullshit, because even if France made it illegal (it's obviously not) other groups would definitely still do it. France is still 86% white people, mostly french. Nobody is being replaced anywhere, because immigration is tiny everywhere. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_France https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_France
    - nostromo123 4y ago
      "France is still 86% white people, mostly french." Now look forward 30-50 years, and see who is more: the native population who has no kids or very few ones, or the immigrant cultures that encourage 3-5+ kids per family. It's just basic population maths.
    - bsaul 4y ago
      From your own article : "Due to a law dating from 1872 at the start of the Third Republic, France has prohibited the collection of data on a citizens race, ethnicity or their beliefs such as religion through national censuses,[47][48] however estimates have been made of the ethnic and racial demography of the country in the present" We're talking estimation as it is indeed illegal, no matter how crazy it may sound like. Estimation is highly dependant on who's doing the estimation, and for what purpose, and as you can see in the article itself, the topic is highly controversial among specialist. Now, if you were living in france for the past 40 years, and had regularely travelled across the country, you would see that in that particular case, the situation is very obvious, and the only circle left still debating the issue is demographic specialists. Politicians and media used to deny the issue and flagged anyone mentioning it as racist, but things have recently changed and we finally start talking about it like grown ups.
cm2187 4y ago
But even from an economic point of view, the French immigration is mostly an uneducated when not illiterate, african, immigration, in a country that has deindustrialised like all other major western economies. It's not a like for like replacement for the local birth rate. You start to see convergence at the second generation. That's a long time.
John23832 4y ago
What makes French (or Japanese) culture something we need to keep ideologically pure? The movement of people causes an interchange of culture.
- red-iron-pine 4y ago
  This is 2023. I can get plenty of interchange on netflix, or hop on a plane and try the interchange in person.
- bsaul 4y ago
  I wasn't talking about keeping it pure. Just keeping it alive.
  - John23832 4y ago
    Why does it die with immigrants? French/Japanese culture exists in the French/Japanese homelands.
    - bsaul 4y ago
      of course, it doesn't have to. And france has dealt with immigration in the past quite successfully, with newcomers melting their identity completely as to become almost undistinguishable from the french one after just a few generations. For some reasons it doesn't seem to having worked that way in the last decades (and it would be really interesting to know why).
      - John23832 4y ago
        What you're doing is called "True Scotsman" and you're missing the point. French culture is whatever happens in France. It's not some ideologically sterile idea that you make it out to be. Same for Japan. French and Japanese culture evolve with time and influence, just as the rest of the world. However it is still French/Japanese culture. In some far distant world where people in France no longer eat baguettes or people in Japan are not synonymous with Sushi, those people still exist in French and Japanese culture. (And those ideological totems still exist as legacies in French and Japanese culture, they're just no longer practiced). And I'm not even going to begin to address the influences that France and Japan have had on other cultures (the entirety of Africa and Asia). The cultures of the places that France and Japan have influence have not been "superseded". They are still the culture's of those lands. They just have outside influence.
jareklupinski 4y ago
> imagine going to a few remote rural areas in japan in 40 years and each time only see tall 7 feet blond and blue eyes people, speaking swedish and not finding sushis or ramen anywhere. to me, that sounds great actually https://en.japantravel.com/shizuoka/izu-shuzenji-british-village/26839 https://en.japantravel.com/shizuoka/izu-shuzenji-british-vil...

by bsaul 4y ago

kevin_thibedeau 4y ago

Being reverse colonized must really suck. Almost as bad as the people who were originally trampled by French boots.

ztrww 4y ago
all of those countries must have been utopian wonderlands before the French came…
- cm2187 4y ago
  ...and after they left.
bsaul 4y ago
i'm not sure if your comment means you're looking forward to support the "anti-colonizers" side in a potential upcoming civil war ?

wikfwikf 4y ago

"the cultural norm of the country, as well as its "visual" identity has shifted from a european country to a (mostly) african one" This is delusional, and yes, I did read the rest of your comment.

bsaul 4y ago
not a native english so i'm not sure what you mean by delusional ? We can't legally compile ethnics statistics in France, so all we have to rely on is our personal feeling, which is of course very subjective ( and this has been the counter argument to my type of argument for a very long time). But it has reached such a level now that nobody is contesting that diagnosis. People give it different names depending on their political orientation ( "creolisation" for the left, "grand remplacement" for the right), but it's basically the same conclusion.
- mrguyorama 4y ago
  >We can't legally compile ethnics statistics in France This is bullshit, because even if France made it illegal (it's obviously not) other groups would definitely still do it. France is still 86% white people, mostly french. Nobody is being replaced anywhere, because immigration is tiny everywhere. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_France https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_France
  - nostromo123 4y ago
    "France is still 86% white people, mostly french." Now look forward 30-50 years, and see who is more: the native population who has no kids or very few ones, or the immigrant cultures that encourage 3-5+ kids per family. It's just basic population maths.
  - bsaul 4y ago
    From your own article : "Due to a law dating from 1872 at the start of the Third Republic, France has prohibited the collection of data on a citizens race, ethnicity or their beliefs such as religion through national censuses,[47][48] however estimates have been made of the ethnic and racial demography of the country in the present" We're talking estimation as it is indeed illegal, no matter how crazy it may sound like. Estimation is highly dependant on who's doing the estimation, and for what purpose, and as you can see in the article itself, the topic is highly controversial among specialist. Now, if you were living in france for the past 40 years, and had regularely travelled across the country, you would see that in that particular case, the situation is very obvious, and the only circle left still debating the issue is demographic specialists. Politicians and media used to deny the issue and flagged anyone mentioning it as racist, but things have recently changed and we finally start talking about it like grown ups.

cm2187 4y ago

But even from an economic point of view, the French immigration is mostly an uneducated when not illiterate, african, immigration, in a country that has deindustrialised like all other major western economies. It's not a like for like replacement for the local birth rate. You start to see convergence at the second generation. That's a long time.

John23832 4y ago

What makes French (or Japanese) culture something we need to keep ideologically pure? The movement of people causes an interchange of culture.

red-iron-pine 4y ago
This is 2023. I can get plenty of interchange on netflix, or hop on a plane and try the interchange in person.
bsaul 4y ago
I wasn't talking about keeping it pure. Just keeping it alive.
- John23832 4y ago
  Why does it die with immigrants? French/Japanese culture exists in the French/Japanese homelands.
  - bsaul 4y ago
    of course, it doesn't have to. And france has dealt with immigration in the past quite successfully, with newcomers melting their identity completely as to become almost undistinguishable from the french one after just a few generations. For some reasons it doesn't seem to having worked that way in the last decades (and it would be really interesting to know why).
    - John23832 4y ago
      What you're doing is called "True Scotsman" and you're missing the point. French culture is whatever happens in France. It's not some ideologically sterile idea that you make it out to be. Same for Japan. French and Japanese culture evolve with time and influence, just as the rest of the world. However it is still French/Japanese culture. In some far distant world where people in France no longer eat baguettes or people in Japan are not synonymous with Sushi, those people still exist in French and Japanese culture. (And those ideological totems still exist as legacies in French and Japanese culture, they're just no longer practiced). And I'm not even going to begin to address the influences that France and Japan have had on other cultures (the entirety of Africa and Asia). The cultures of the places that France and Japan have influence have not been "superseded". They are still the culture's of those lands. They just have outside influence.

jareklupinski 4y ago

> imagine going to a few remote rural areas in japan in 40 years and each time only see tall 7 feet blond and blue eyes people, speaking swedish and not finding sushis or ramen anywhere. to me, that sounds great actually https://en.japantravel.com/shizuoka/izu-shuzenji-british-village/26839 https://en.japantravel.com/shizuoka/izu-shuzenji-british-vil...