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I am blind. Would I be able to use your iPad setup to order something in your shop, or is the "lets make everything fancy" setup maybe exclusionary?

by lynx23 4y ago

adenozine 4y ago
[flagged]
- frameset 4y ago
  Would the Americans With Disabilities act apply here?
  - adenozine 4y ago
    The ADA is mostly environmental issues. By that I mean if your business has proper ramps, braille on signage for ingress/egress/restrooms/hard copy menus. It doesn’t mandate that a business must prioritize disabled customers or even that every person with a disability be able to use the service. Again, car companies are the canonical excepted business, but the ADA cannot force you to serve a customer that your business is not right for. I’m not necessarily advocating for either side, I just don’t like the idea of an automated process being disrupted when there’s other places someone with a disability can go for the same service. Doing business is mutual.
    - vegardx 4y ago
      At no point has anyone argued that people with disability should be prioritized over any other customers. Just that they should be able to get the same service as anyone else. How you think a car dealership is equivalent to a coffee shop is beyond me. That said, I can assure you that a blind person would be able to buy a car, if they wanted to. That they can't legally operate the vehicle isn't the business of the car manufacturer or dealership. You are clearly advocating for one specific side. You've only argued for one specific side.
      - adenozine 4y ago
        [flagged]
        vegardx 4y ago
        If your ability to disrupt a market hinges on your ability to not take the bare minimum of steps when it comes to accessibility, then I'm sorry to break it to you, but you're not cut out for "being disruptive". There's no attitude in "the disabled community" (whatever that is) that they are less capable. People with disability mostly want to be able to do things on their own, the same way as the rest of us. I'm not being uncharitable, and I'm not accusing you of anything, I'm stating a fact. There is no other way to read the comments you've made so far. You've gone as far as framing it as if they just wanted a free coffee. Just because you're labeling it as a non-issue doesn't mean you're right. You've replied to an actual blind person asking for how they deal with it, it's hard to find a better example of how tone-deaf you come off. You're describing a dystopian version of capitalism. Luckily, reality is much better and most entrepreneurs welcome advice from people with disability on how to make things more accessible.
    - everforward 4y ago
      I think the ADA might apply here. Domino's lost an ADA lawsuit because their online ordering wasn't accessible. Disability is also a protected class here, but I'm not sure if or to what degree that would mean anything. Afaik you can't refuse to serve a protected class at a public establishment, but I don't know if that compels them to make modifications to the business or not.
- lynx23 4y ago
  Thanks for making your attitude towards people with disabilities clear upfront. Comparing a car dealership with a coffee shop... I am lost on words.
  - adenozine 4y ago
    It’s unfortunate that you feel like I have an attitude about it at all. I empathize with you, and I know it must be difficult, especially in everyday life. That being said, you are not entitled to anything more than anybody else just because of your disability. Nobody is entitled to free coffee, just like nobody is entitled to free cars.
    - lynx23 4y ago
      What are you talking about? ARe you on drugs or something? Nobody ever said they want a free coffee, nor was anybody ever talking about entitlement. Get your act together, and cool down man.
      - adenozine 4y ago
        [flagged]
jacktribe 4y ago
We have 2 recurring customers that are vision impaired (there’s an apartment building for people with disabilities nearby). We help place their orders, as we would with any customer that needs help using the iPads for other reasons. Vision impaired people require the same help reading the menu at any other coffee shop, so it’s not any different. In fact it might make it easier on them because they don’t feel like they’re holding up the line. If one of us guides them through the menu on one iPad, other customers can still use the other iPads to order. On a related note, I did notice that our visually impaired customers have a phone app that I believe scans and reads the text from the screen out to them. Perhaps we should have our own text to speech option in some future version.
- lynx23 4y ago
  iOS has VoiceOver built-in. If you coded your app correctly, the customer should be able to activate VoiceOver with a tripple-click on the home-button (or the quivalent on a device without home button).
- yreg 4y ago
  iPadOS comes with VoiceOver and you should be able to enable it as an accessibility shortcut (Settings -> Accessibility) that works in kiosk mode as well. Depending how your views are laid out the app might need some polish to improve navigation, but overall it should work from the get go. Concerns I see are that (1) only Apple users will know how to trigger it and (2) the vision impaired customer might leave VoiceOver on, which will confuse the next customer who uses the kiosk.
Archipelagia 4y ago
I think both of this comment is needlessly hostile. Like, starting the conversation with an accusatory comment of "hey, btw, did you think of this very super rare situation, or are you the evil exclusionary guy?" is kind of an asshole thing to do. Most people with sight don't encounter blindness often, so making someone feel attacked for not thinking about is just a way to generate hostility. Having said that, I actually appreciate the content (if not the form) of this comment – it's pretty easy to accidentally block people from using your software, and accessibility reminders are an important thing. Though in this case human solution (have the waiter come and help) is probably better than software one.
- lynx23 4y ago
  Calling a disabled person an asshole because they are trying to raise awareness for a rare and not well known issue is totally the HN thing to do. Thanks for drilling it in. You must be a very nice person to talk to.
- lynx23 4y ago
  dang, if you read this, please delete my account (or blockit, whatever). I no longer want to be part of this community, nor do I want to accidentally fall for it in the future. kthxbye

I am blind. Would I be able to use your iPad setup to order something in your shop, or is the "lets make everything fancy" setup maybe exclusionary?

by lynx23 4y ago

I am blind. Would I be able to use your iPad setup to order something in your shop, or is the "lets make everything fancy" setup maybe exclusionary?

adenozine 4y ago

[flagged]

frameset 4y ago
Would the Americans With Disabilities act apply here?
- adenozine 4y ago
  The ADA is mostly environmental issues. By that I mean if your business has proper ramps, braille on signage for ingress/egress/restrooms/hard copy menus. It doesn’t mandate that a business must prioritize disabled customers or even that every person with a disability be able to use the service. Again, car companies are the canonical excepted business, but the ADA cannot force you to serve a customer that your business is not right for. I’m not necessarily advocating for either side, I just don’t like the idea of an automated process being disrupted when there’s other places someone with a disability can go for the same service. Doing business is mutual.
  - vegardx 4y ago
    At no point has anyone argued that people with disability should be prioritized over any other customers. Just that they should be able to get the same service as anyone else. How you think a car dealership is equivalent to a coffee shop is beyond me. That said, I can assure you that a blind person would be able to buy a car, if they wanted to. That they can't legally operate the vehicle isn't the business of the car manufacturer or dealership. You are clearly advocating for one specific side. You've only argued for one specific side.
    - adenozine 4y ago
      [flagged]
      - vegardx 4y ago
        If your ability to disrupt a market hinges on your ability to not take the bare minimum of steps when it comes to accessibility, then I'm sorry to break it to you, but you're not cut out for "being disruptive". There's no attitude in "the disabled community" (whatever that is) that they are less capable. People with disability mostly want to be able to do things on their own, the same way as the rest of us. I'm not being uncharitable, and I'm not accusing you of anything, I'm stating a fact. There is no other way to read the comments you've made so far. You've gone as far as framing it as if they just wanted a free coffee. Just because you're labeling it as a non-issue doesn't mean you're right. You've replied to an actual blind person asking for how they deal with it, it's hard to find a better example of how tone-deaf you come off. You're describing a dystopian version of capitalism. Luckily, reality is much better and most entrepreneurs welcome advice from people with disability on how to make things more accessible.
  - everforward 4y ago
    I think the ADA might apply here. Domino's lost an ADA lawsuit because their online ordering wasn't accessible. Disability is also a protected class here, but I'm not sure if or to what degree that would mean anything. Afaik you can't refuse to serve a protected class at a public establishment, but I don't know if that compels them to make modifications to the business or not.
lynx23 4y ago
Thanks for making your attitude towards people with disabilities clear upfront. Comparing a car dealership with a coffee shop... I am lost on words.
- adenozine 4y ago
  It’s unfortunate that you feel like I have an attitude about it at all. I empathize with you, and I know it must be difficult, especially in everyday life. That being said, you are not entitled to anything more than anybody else just because of your disability. Nobody is entitled to free coffee, just like nobody is entitled to free cars.
  - lynx23 4y ago
    What are you talking about? ARe you on drugs or something? Nobody ever said they want a free coffee, nor was anybody ever talking about entitlement. Get your act together, and cool down man.
    - adenozine 4y ago
      [flagged]

jacktribe 4y ago

We have 2 recurring customers that are vision impaired (there’s an apartment building for people with disabilities nearby). We help place their orders, as we would with any customer that needs help using the iPads for other reasons. Vision impaired people require the same help reading the menu at any other coffee shop, so it’s not any different. In fact it might make it easier on them because they don’t feel like they’re holding up the line. If one of us guides them through the menu on one iPad, other customers can still use the other iPads to order. On a related note, I did notice that our visually impaired customers have a phone app that I believe scans and reads the text from the screen out to them. Perhaps we should have our own text to speech option in some future version.

lynx23 4y ago
iOS has VoiceOver built-in. If you coded your app correctly, the customer should be able to activate VoiceOver with a tripple-click on the home-button (or the quivalent on a device without home button).
yreg 4y ago
iPadOS comes with VoiceOver and you should be able to enable it as an accessibility shortcut (Settings -> Accessibility) that works in kiosk mode as well. Depending how your views are laid out the app might need some polish to improve navigation, but overall it should work from the get go. Concerns I see are that (1) only Apple users will know how to trigger it and (2) the vision impaired customer might leave VoiceOver on, which will confuse the next customer who uses the kiosk.

Archipelagia 4y ago

I think both of this comment is needlessly hostile. Like, starting the conversation with an accusatory comment of "hey, btw, did you think of this very super rare situation, or are you the evil exclusionary guy?" is kind of an asshole thing to do. Most people with sight don't encounter blindness often, so making someone feel attacked for not thinking about is just a way to generate hostility. Having said that, I actually appreciate the content (if not the form) of this comment – it's pretty easy to accidentally block people from using your software, and accessibility reminders are an important thing. Though in this case human solution (have the waiter come and help) is probably better than software one.

lynx23 4y ago
Calling a disabled person an asshole because they are trying to raise awareness for a rare and not well known issue is totally the HN thing to do. Thanks for drilling it in. You must be a very nice person to talk to.
lynx23 4y ago
dang, if you read this, please delete my account (or blockit, whatever). I no longer want to be part of this community, nor do I want to accidentally fall for it in the future. kthxbye