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Terraces in bars are now just smoking areas in countries that implemented an indoor smoking ban. Some places try implement an X meters from entrances rule, but

Terraces in bars are now just smoking areas in countries that implemented an indoor smoking ban. Some places try implement an X meters from entrances rule, but its a waste of time.

ornornor 4y ago
Depends where. It’s illegal to smoke on terraces, near entrances, and near windows in Canada. I believe NYC has similar bylaws. But yes in many places, outdoor and terraces/patios are still a health hazard.
- nibbleshifter 4y ago
  Terraces and patios here are clearly designated as the smoking area. Bars without a smoking area simply don't survive - nobody goes to them.
  - ornornor 4y ago
    Still doesn’t make it right. As a rational individual (or as my couple of friends with a new born), if I want to avoid exposing myself or infants to known carcinogens, I have to never ever eat on a patio/terrace because it’s been co-opted for smoking, but also not indoors because the smoke generally gets in through the windows and entrances (as the waiters move a lot of air by going to and from the kitchen hundreds of time a service)
    - nibbleshifter 4y ago
      That is your problem. If the terrace is clearly marked as a smoking area, complaining about people smoking in the smoking area is irrational behavior. As for bringing infants to bars... Well. Restaurants is one thing, but bringing infants (or any children) to bars is just antisocial behavior. Where I live its not permitted for minors to be in the bar after 9pm, but many people think it should be much, much earlier cutoff time. Now what's funny is, this actually was briefly a solved problem, but anti smoking people went and ruined it for everyone in some countries. The solution was entirely sealed off smoking rooms with ventilation that ensured smoke didn't "leak" from the smoking room. Anti smoking campaigners made it so smoking areas had to be in the open air to some extent, entirely prohibiting indoor smoking rooms. Hence: the patio/terrace is now the smoking area, instead of sectioning off of an area indoors and fitting of a ventilation.
      - ornornor 4y ago
        Hard disagree. You’re free to do as you please as long as it doesn’t impact others. Annexing patios and terraces for smokers use very much impacts non smokers. And it’s not like I can sidestep the problem because maybe I would also like to enjoy a meal or drink outdoors without smoking, and if I don’t I still have to walk through a toxic cloud to get into the venue. Never mind being pretty much in the smoking section if the only spot left is near the door or window. People who smoke bother those who don’t much more than the other way around. It takes one smoker to ruin the air and make it toxic in a 15–30m radius for everyone else. This isn’t “my” problem. Im not being facetious or picky. Posting an area as smoking doesn’t absolve anyone of the consequences or burden on others. Cigarette smoke stinks (even most smokers agree), is known to be a potent carcinogen, and no one should be forced to inhale secondhand smoke whenever a smoker feels like indulging (and harming themselves but at least it’s their prerogative and mostly their problem except for the huge societal financial burden to treat them afterwards) Also, this might sound weird in puritanical US but there really isn’t anything sordid about bars or restaurants in Europe. Some bars are more geared towards adults but most places are a mix of families and adults, taking your children with you to these venues doesn’t make you a bad parent and happens often.
        nibbleshifter 4y ago
        I guess the question remains: where should a venue locate its smoking area? An enclosed, ventilated space is mostly prohibited due to the law being an ass. > it’s their prerogative and mostly their problem except for the huge societal financial burden to treat them afterwards In the UK at least, smokers tend to pay in more as tax on their cigarette habit than they cost the state in pensions and healthcare, thanks to dying early. They literally are the opposite of a burden. Regarding children in bars: I'm European myself, and the social acceptability of having your child in a bar has been waning for quite some time.
Kiro 4y ago
How is it a waste of time? It has done wonders in Sweden.
- LtWorf 4y ago
  Just because they risk the alcool license. In the bus stops nobody cares. In general, smokers aren't the most empathetic kind of people.
  - ornornor 4y ago
    So why couldn’t this be done outside Sweden? AFAIK most countries require licensing for selling alcohol which some authority overviews and can withdraw when some laws are broken (serving alcohol to minors etc). Why wouldn’t it be possible to also lose your license if you allow smoking where it’s not permitted?
    - nibbleshifter 4y ago
      > Why wouldn’t it be possible to also lose your license if you allow smoking where it’s not permitted? This already happens to the extent that it is enforceable. If a venue allow smoking inside where not permitted, or in an area deemed 'inside' (too sheltered, whatever), the venue gets fined or can have its licence suspended or even fully withdrawn. The law also makes some provision for common sense. The venues ability to control smoking ends at the boundary (the door). So the venue isn't responsible if someone smokes outside the door on the footpath - its not their problem. Designating the outdoor areas as smoking areas is an acceptable compromise. Venues lacking in smoking areas tend to be unviable financially.
LtWorf 4y ago
In Sweden they banned smoking on them, and the place risks their alcool license. So they are quite strict about it.

Terraces in bars are now just smoking areas in countries that implemented an indoor smoking ban. Some places try implement an X meters from entrances rule, but its a waste of time.

ornornor 4y ago

Depends where. It’s illegal to smoke on terraces, near entrances, and near windows in Canada. I believe NYC has similar bylaws. But yes in many places, outdoor and terraces/patios are still a health hazard.

nibbleshifter 4y ago
Terraces and patios here are clearly designated as the smoking area. Bars without a smoking area simply don't survive - nobody goes to them.
- ornornor 4y ago
  Still doesn’t make it right. As a rational individual (or as my couple of friends with a new born), if I want to avoid exposing myself or infants to known carcinogens, I have to never ever eat on a patio/terrace because it’s been co-opted for smoking, but also not indoors because the smoke generally gets in through the windows and entrances (as the waiters move a lot of air by going to and from the kitchen hundreds of time a service)
  - nibbleshifter 4y ago
    That is your problem. If the terrace is clearly marked as a smoking area, complaining about people smoking in the smoking area is irrational behavior. As for bringing infants to bars... Well. Restaurants is one thing, but bringing infants (or any children) to bars is just antisocial behavior. Where I live its not permitted for minors to be in the bar after 9pm, but many people think it should be much, much earlier cutoff time. Now what's funny is, this actually was briefly a solved problem, but anti smoking people went and ruined it for everyone in some countries. The solution was entirely sealed off smoking rooms with ventilation that ensured smoke didn't "leak" from the smoking room. Anti smoking campaigners made it so smoking areas had to be in the open air to some extent, entirely prohibiting indoor smoking rooms. Hence: the patio/terrace is now the smoking area, instead of sectioning off of an area indoors and fitting of a ventilation.
    - ornornor 4y ago
      Hard disagree. You’re free to do as you please as long as it doesn’t impact others. Annexing patios and terraces for smokers use very much impacts non smokers. And it’s not like I can sidestep the problem because maybe I would also like to enjoy a meal or drink outdoors without smoking, and if I don’t I still have to walk through a toxic cloud to get into the venue. Never mind being pretty much in the smoking section if the only spot left is near the door or window. People who smoke bother those who don’t much more than the other way around. It takes one smoker to ruin the air and make it toxic in a 15–30m radius for everyone else. This isn’t “my” problem. Im not being facetious or picky. Posting an area as smoking doesn’t absolve anyone of the consequences or burden on others. Cigarette smoke stinks (even most smokers agree), is known to be a potent carcinogen, and no one should be forced to inhale secondhand smoke whenever a smoker feels like indulging (and harming themselves but at least it’s their prerogative and mostly their problem except for the huge societal financial burden to treat them afterwards) Also, this might sound weird in puritanical US but there really isn’t anything sordid about bars or restaurants in Europe. Some bars are more geared towards adults but most places are a mix of families and adults, taking your children with you to these venues doesn’t make you a bad parent and happens often.
      - nibbleshifter 4y ago
        I guess the question remains: where should a venue locate its smoking area? An enclosed, ventilated space is mostly prohibited due to the law being an ass. > it’s their prerogative and mostly their problem except for the huge societal financial burden to treat them afterwards In the UK at least, smokers tend to pay in more as tax on their cigarette habit than they cost the state in pensions and healthcare, thanks to dying early. They literally are the opposite of a burden. Regarding children in bars: I'm European myself, and the social acceptability of having your child in a bar has been waning for quite some time.

Kiro 4y ago

How is it a waste of time? It has done wonders in Sweden.

LtWorf 4y ago
Just because they risk the alcool license. In the bus stops nobody cares. In general, smokers aren't the most empathetic kind of people.
- ornornor 4y ago
  So why couldn’t this be done outside Sweden? AFAIK most countries require licensing for selling alcohol which some authority overviews and can withdraw when some laws are broken (serving alcohol to minors etc). Why wouldn’t it be possible to also lose your license if you allow smoking where it’s not permitted?
  - nibbleshifter 4y ago
    > Why wouldn’t it be possible to also lose your license if you allow smoking where it’s not permitted? This already happens to the extent that it is enforceable. If a venue allow smoking inside where not permitted, or in an area deemed 'inside' (too sheltered, whatever), the venue gets fined or can have its licence suspended or even fully withdrawn. The law also makes some provision for common sense. The venues ability to control smoking ends at the boundary (the door). So the venue isn't responsible if someone smokes outside the door on the footpath - its not their problem. Designating the outdoor areas as smoking areas is an acceptable compromise. Venues lacking in smoking areas tend to be unviable financially.

LtWorf 4y ago

In Sweden they banned smoking on them, and the place risks their alcool license. So they are quite strict about it.