5 ms·

"It's not normal to have cities with population densites of 6,158 persons per square kilometer" It's pretty normal for those who live in such places, and not r

"It's not normal to have cities with population densites of 6,158 persons per square kilometer" It's pretty normal for those who live in such places, and not really significantly more "unnatural" compared to sorts of social arrangements we evolved with over 100s of 1000s of years than, say, suburban style living where each nuclear family is significantly isolated from the next and there's no practical way of getting around other than by motorised vehicles. I wonder what total % of the human population these days do live at densities over 5k/sq. km. - would be a non-negligible amount at least (China has a number of cities with significant metro areas that qualify), and if you lower the bar to 3k/sq. km, it'd quite possibly be a significant fraction, maybe even more than 10% of all humans? The only actual stat I could find is that "apartments accounted for 36.3% of all households globally in 2013". Oh and Japan's population density overall is a bit over 300 per sq. km., so there's plenty of opportunities for those choosing to live in much denser parts of major cities to avoid it if they wanted to.

Vt71fcAqt7 4y ago
So you don't think overpopulation has anything to do with falling birth rates? Do you think Japan will just continue to have low birth rates forever?
- wizofaus 4y ago
  It's possibly a contributing factor, but Japanese families are quite accustomed to the idea that their kids will grow up in what many of us in less-densely populated Western countries would consider uncomfortably small spaces. I'm not going to make any predictions about "forever", but unless they start ramping up immigration and allowing in those from cultures where having larger families is more of a priority, I doubt it's going up any time soon.
  - Vt71fcAqt7 4y ago
    There are people who live in "apartments" in Tokyo smaller than the average American bathroom. It's not normal, there are no two ways about it.
    - wizofaus 4y ago
      Is that a comment about the excessive size of American bathrooms? From what I can find, 6000/sq.km2 equates to something like 45 sq.m of living space per apartment.
      - Vt71fcAqt7 4y ago
        It's not a comment on American bathrooms. There are people in Japan literally living in drawers.[0] Not even a joke. You're plan to "start ramping up immigration and allowing in those from cultures where having larger families is more of a priority" is quite frankly insane. I can't even call it naive as it's clearly drawn from a political belief that "immigrant = good" with no exceptions, all repercussions be damned, even in severely overpopulated countries. [0]https://earthlymission.com/capsule-homes-in-japan/ https://earthlymission.com/capsule-homes-in-japan/ These aren't even the smallest ones. There are ones even half the size of these.
        wizofaus 4y ago
        My "plan"? How on earth did you read that into my comment... And yes some of those dwellings are pretty cramped, but is it somehow worse than the situation in many Western cities where there are those reduced to living in tents on streets or under bridges etc.? The "official" Tokyo homeless figures may be questionable (supposedly less than 800 out of a city of 15 million) but having visited a few times I can't say I recollect noticing any significant number of homeless people.
        Vt71fcAqt7 4y ago
        By "plan" I meant simply "a method for achieving an end,"[0] not that you actually intend to act on that plan. Feel free to replace "plan" with "idea" if that is better. I'm really confused by your comparison to the US again here: is the homeless problem in the US because of overpopulation as opposed to drugs and mental illness, for example? If so, then if US cities are overpopulated to the extent that the homeless level has gone up so much, Japan is most certainly even more overpopulated, and it's a forgone conclusion that the population should decrease. If the homeless problem in the US is not due to overpopulation, then how is the homeless problem in the US relevant to the overpopulation problem in Japan? In any case, the US fertility rate is also low, at 1.64. So I think it's fair to say the cost of living, the largest of which is housing, plays a crucial role in the fertility rate. A family can't live in a cupboard, no matter how "accustomed to the idea" one may be. At the very least, most people wouldn't choose to start a family in a cupboard, and that is certainly reflected in the Japanese fertility rate. [0]https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/plan https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/plan

Vt71fcAqt7 4y ago

So you don't think overpopulation has anything to do with falling birth rates? Do you think Japan will just continue to have low birth rates forever?

wizofaus 4y ago
It's possibly a contributing factor, but Japanese families are quite accustomed to the idea that their kids will grow up in what many of us in less-densely populated Western countries would consider uncomfortably small spaces. I'm not going to make any predictions about "forever", but unless they start ramping up immigration and allowing in those from cultures where having larger families is more of a priority, I doubt it's going up any time soon.
- Vt71fcAqt7 4y ago
  There are people who live in "apartments" in Tokyo smaller than the average American bathroom. It's not normal, there are no two ways about it.
  - wizofaus 4y ago
    Is that a comment about the excessive size of American bathrooms? From what I can find, 6000/sq.km2 equates to something like 45 sq.m of living space per apartment.
    - Vt71fcAqt7 4y ago
      It's not a comment on American bathrooms. There are people in Japan literally living in drawers.[0] Not even a joke. You're plan to "start ramping up immigration and allowing in those from cultures where having larger families is more of a priority" is quite frankly insane. I can't even call it naive as it's clearly drawn from a political belief that "immigrant = good" with no exceptions, all repercussions be damned, even in severely overpopulated countries. [0]https://earthlymission.com/capsule-homes-in-japan/ https://earthlymission.com/capsule-homes-in-japan/ These aren't even the smallest ones. There are ones even half the size of these.
      - wizofaus 4y ago
        My "plan"? How on earth did you read that into my comment... And yes some of those dwellings are pretty cramped, but is it somehow worse than the situation in many Western cities where there are those reduced to living in tents on streets or under bridges etc.? The "official" Tokyo homeless figures may be questionable (supposedly less than 800 out of a city of 15 million) but having visited a few times I can't say I recollect noticing any significant number of homeless people.
        Vt71fcAqt7 4y ago
        By "plan" I meant simply "a method for achieving an end,"[0] not that you actually intend to act on that plan. Feel free to replace "plan" with "idea" if that is better. I'm really confused by your comparison to the US again here: is the homeless problem in the US because of overpopulation as opposed to drugs and mental illness, for example? If so, then if US cities are overpopulated to the extent that the homeless level has gone up so much, Japan is most certainly even more overpopulated, and it's a forgone conclusion that the population should decrease. If the homeless problem in the US is not due to overpopulation, then how is the homeless problem in the US relevant to the overpopulation problem in Japan? In any case, the US fertility rate is also low, at 1.64. So I think it's fair to say the cost of living, the largest of which is housing, plays a crucial role in the fertility rate. A family can't live in a cupboard, no matter how "accustomed to the idea" one may be. At the very least, most people wouldn't choose to start a family in a cupboard, and that is certainly reflected in the Japanese fertility rate. [0]https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/plan https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/plan