9 ms·

There has been a deplorable profusion of dark patterns in restaurant checkout UIs, such as offering preselected tip amounts set along a 18-20-25% scale (standar

by yafbum 4y ago

There has been a deplorable profusion of dark patterns in restaurant checkout UIs, such as offering preselected tip amounts set along a 18-20-25% scale (standard used to be 15%), making it quite difficult to leave a custom tip, etc. Add to this various "surcharges" and other mandatory fees added for this or that (my favorite: mandatory "resort fees" for hotels - seriously why is that not just rolled into the price of the stay?), and the service industry in the US has a serious price transparency crisis. It is quite literally impossible to predict the final cost of service, so as a rule of thumb I have come to generally expect to be out of pocket about 50% - 80% more than the listed price. Any other country would call this fraud.

8note 4y ago
Lol, more like 20/25/30 15/18/20 was in 2018
irrational 4y ago
Fortunately it is still possible to choose the tip amount. I just move it to 15%.
- amrocha 4y ago
  if they have 15% available I choose that If they don't I do a custom $0 tip and tell the restaurant why I did it
swaggyBoatswain 4y ago
100% this Some of these places will also auto add grauituity charges as well for larger parties, and auto select a tip so if you don't look at the bill you could be footing out as much as 40%. Super shady UI practices. I don't want to be guilt tripped in tipping for a baked item for instance, or a chipotle style served food restaurant.
- orev 4y ago
  Adding a tip for large parties has been a common practice for decades—long before the current trend of adding tips for everything. Whether you agree with the idea of tips or not, that’s the system we have, and in that system large parties very often take up far more resources at a restaurant than smaller ones. They take more time to leave, they clog up the kitchen (as all dishes need to come out at the same time), they often occupy multiple servers at the same time (when a normal table takes only one), and very often don’t tip at a level anywhere close to the standard 15% (with so many people, everyone thinks they can get away with a low tip and others at the table will make up for it). Servers get charged taxes as if they received those tips, so getting shorted actually costs them money (paying taxes on money they didn’t receive). This practice is different than dark patterns, as it’s actually addressing a real problem with the customers that’s been known be restaurants for a long time. It’s not the same thing as trying to trick or guilt people into tipping.
  - cudgy 4y ago
    I’m not buying this overall. Large groups typically order more alcoholic drinks while they are spending more time, which is hugely profitable for restaurants. Also, the more waiters argument doesn’t hold when there are more people/tables. I agree that bringing out more food at the same time is more effort, but this is not insurmountable. It’s basically a grift to get more money from the suckling pigs of wedding parties, birthday parties, and corporate dinners. Basically, extract more money from the big spenders. Really hate this practice.
    - hoorible 4y ago
      Sounds like you’ve never waited tables! Two-tops are the best for earnings, both for the restaurant and the server. Easier for a charismatic career server to separately charm three couples on dates than a single table of six all at once. And higher turnover is better for revenue. 1-on-1 business meeting? They’ve got work to do. Couples on dates? They’ve got fucking to do. Smaller parties -> faster turnover -> more money. Large parties are worse in every way. Special table arrangements for reservations made in advance mean more seats left empty while waiting for the arrival. People at large gatherings will buy less food/drink just as often as they’ll buy more. Sometimes it’s a work party where everything is expensed; cool! But lots of companies don’t cover alcohol expenses, which is your most profitable item. Just as often it’s a going away party for a bunch of retail workers where everyone nurses one drink for two hours and splits 3 appies across the whole table. Large parties suck. Some servers prefer them, but those people are heroes (and rare). Minimum 18% for large parties is standard where I am, but if it was my call it would be 30.
shostack 4y ago
Don't forget: - Asking for a tip for takeout orders - Asking for the payment including tip before you've received service, often via one of those stupid QR menus that does who knows what with your order data that is now tied to your phone - Not having 20% as a tip option, but something like 18%, 23%, 27% - Looming over your shoulder while you enter the tip I want servers to make a livable wage. I'm willing to pay more. I want my prices transparent, and I don't want the mountain of guilt and social pressure.
- mixmastamyk 4y ago
  Also calculating the tip including the tax, instead of just the products/service provided. (Shouldn't be tipping on tax, if you really want to send it to the IRS. :)
- n8henrie 4y ago
  Thinking about your comment on QR codes -- If memory serves its not difficult on iOS to set something up to display the QR code data as text instead of acting on it. I assume it's similarly opaque to use a URL for the same purpose, which would almost certainly be a "enter your phone / email so we can send you your URL...". In your opinion, assuming electronic ordering, what is the best alternative to a QR code when considering privacy + ease of use?
  - shostack 4y ago
    An analog fallback via paper menu. If I'm doing sit down ordering, I don't want to order electronically unless you give me an ipad. And I don't want to pay until the meal is over. Period.
    - n8henrie 4y ago
      So "assuming electronic ordering" your suggestion is for them to provide a device. That makes sense.
- deanCommie 4y ago
  > - Looming over your shoulder while you enter the tip I'm with you on the rest, but I find this one dramatically exaggerated by a certain type of person. If you're paying by card, the server is going to be around, waiting for you to finish so they can give you a copy of the receipt. I find that there is a certain type of person will always describe this as "looming" or "guilted" or feel "social pressure". Your feelings are legitimate, but the logic behind them is not. While there is definitely pressure to tip (and tip more and more), I've never met a server who would actually act in any way outwardly disappointed by 1) tip of 15%, 2) no tip on takeout, 3) no tip on counter service. While some people will say "you SHOULD tip 20%" (or more), the actual staff will consider anything beyond the old standard bonus.
rippercushions 4y ago
Try taking a taxi in NYC. IIRC the preselected tip options are 20%, 25% and 30%, and this is on top of a base fare of $100 to Newark when an Uber is literally half price.
euroderf 4y ago
That's one nice thing about living in the EU, that it mandates full price disclosure for some industries. (Anyone got a list?) In particular, when it says your airline ticket is NNN€, you will pay than NNN€. No screwball fees up the wazoo.
- midasuni 4y ago
  Still plenty of restaurants with “service charge” at the bottom of the menu
  - mdrzn 4y ago
    That's at worst a couple euros per person, very far from a 10%-20% upcharge.
    - midasuni 4y ago
      I have a photo of a menu from Munich earlier this year, not a particularly fancy restaurant - just a pizza place with a table on the street. 12.5% service charge at the bottom.
      - euroderf 4y ago
        But it was up front, in genuine print, not buried on a terminal.
        yardstick 4y ago
        Just wait to you get to Italy or Spain, sometimes restaurants in very touristy areas will charge different service charges based on seating area. Eg nice area is 20% or more service charge, vs maybe 12.5% for a table without a view. You don’t see that until you are already in your seat, and then you have to deal with the social awkwardness of asking to move tables (which some don’t do because they are some mixture of introverted or embarrassed).
  - iLoveOncall 4y ago

by yafbum 4y ago

8note 4y ago

Lol, more like 20/25/30 15/18/20 was in 2018

irrational 4y ago

Fortunately it is still possible to choose the tip amount. I just move it to 15%.

amrocha 4y ago
if they have 15% available I choose that If they don't I do a custom $0 tip and tell the restaurant why I did it

swaggyBoatswain 4y ago

100% this Some of these places will also auto add grauituity charges as well for larger parties, and auto select a tip so if you don't look at the bill you could be footing out as much as 40%. Super shady UI practices. I don't want to be guilt tripped in tipping for a baked item for instance, or a chipotle style served food restaurant.

orev 4y ago
Adding a tip for large parties has been a common practice for decades—long before the current trend of adding tips for everything. Whether you agree with the idea of tips or not, that’s the system we have, and in that system large parties very often take up far more resources at a restaurant than smaller ones. They take more time to leave, they clog up the kitchen (as all dishes need to come out at the same time), they often occupy multiple servers at the same time (when a normal table takes only one), and very often don’t tip at a level anywhere close to the standard 15% (with so many people, everyone thinks they can get away with a low tip and others at the table will make up for it). Servers get charged taxes as if they received those tips, so getting shorted actually costs them money (paying taxes on money they didn’t receive). This practice is different than dark patterns, as it’s actually addressing a real problem with the customers that’s been known be restaurants for a long time. It’s not the same thing as trying to trick or guilt people into tipping.
- cudgy 4y ago
  I’m not buying this overall. Large groups typically order more alcoholic drinks while they are spending more time, which is hugely profitable for restaurants. Also, the more waiters argument doesn’t hold when there are more people/tables. I agree that bringing out more food at the same time is more effort, but this is not insurmountable. It’s basically a grift to get more money from the suckling pigs of wedding parties, birthday parties, and corporate dinners. Basically, extract more money from the big spenders. Really hate this practice.
  - hoorible 4y ago
    Sounds like you’ve never waited tables! Two-tops are the best for earnings, both for the restaurant and the server. Easier for a charismatic career server to separately charm three couples on dates than a single table of six all at once. And higher turnover is better for revenue. 1-on-1 business meeting? They’ve got work to do. Couples on dates? They’ve got fucking to do. Smaller parties -> faster turnover -> more money. Large parties are worse in every way. Special table arrangements for reservations made in advance mean more seats left empty while waiting for the arrival. People at large gatherings will buy less food/drink just as often as they’ll buy more. Sometimes it’s a work party where everything is expensed; cool! But lots of companies don’t cover alcohol expenses, which is your most profitable item. Just as often it’s a going away party for a bunch of retail workers where everyone nurses one drink for two hours and splits 3 appies across the whole table. Large parties suck. Some servers prefer them, but those people are heroes (and rare). Minimum 18% for large parties is standard where I am, but if it was my call it would be 30.

shostack 4y ago

Don't forget: - Asking for a tip for takeout orders - Asking for the payment including tip before you've received service, often via one of those stupid QR menus that does who knows what with your order data that is now tied to your phone - Not having 20% as a tip option, but something like 18%, 23%, 27% - Looming over your shoulder while you enter the tip I want servers to make a livable wage. I'm willing to pay more. I want my prices transparent, and I don't want the mountain of guilt and social pressure.

mixmastamyk 4y ago
Also calculating the tip including the tax, instead of just the products/service provided. (Shouldn't be tipping on tax, if you really want to send it to the IRS. :)
n8henrie 4y ago
Thinking about your comment on QR codes -- If memory serves its not difficult on iOS to set something up to display the QR code data as text instead of acting on it. I assume it's similarly opaque to use a URL for the same purpose, which would almost certainly be a "enter your phone / email so we can send you your URL...". In your opinion, assuming electronic ordering, what is the best alternative to a QR code when considering privacy + ease of use?
- shostack 4y ago
  An analog fallback via paper menu. If I'm doing sit down ordering, I don't want to order electronically unless you give me an ipad. And I don't want to pay until the meal is over. Period.
  - n8henrie 4y ago
    So "assuming electronic ordering" your suggestion is for them to provide a device. That makes sense.
deanCommie 4y ago
> - Looming over your shoulder while you enter the tip I'm with you on the rest, but I find this one dramatically exaggerated by a certain type of person. If you're paying by card, the server is going to be around, waiting for you to finish so they can give you a copy of the receipt. I find that there is a certain type of person will always describe this as "looming" or "guilted" or feel "social pressure". Your feelings are legitimate, but the logic behind them is not. While there is definitely pressure to tip (and tip more and more), I've never met a server who would actually act in any way outwardly disappointed by 1) tip of 15%, 2) no tip on takeout, 3) no tip on counter service. While some people will say "you SHOULD tip 20%" (or more), the actual staff will consider anything beyond the old standard bonus.

rippercushions 4y ago

Try taking a taxi in NYC. IIRC the preselected tip options are 20%, 25% and 30%, and this is on top of a base fare of $100 to Newark when an Uber is literally half price.

euroderf 4y ago

That's one nice thing about living in the EU, that it mandates full price disclosure for some industries. (Anyone got a list?) In particular, when it says your airline ticket is NNN€, you will pay than NNN€. No screwball fees up the wazoo.

midasuni 4y ago
Still plenty of restaurants with “service charge” at the bottom of the menu
- mdrzn 4y ago
  That's at worst a couple euros per person, very far from a 10%-20% upcharge.
  - midasuni 4y ago
    I have a photo of a menu from Munich earlier this year, not a particularly fancy restaurant - just a pizza place with a table on the street. 12.5% service charge at the bottom.
    - euroderf 4y ago
      But it was up front, in genuine print, not buried on a terminal.
      - yardstick 4y ago
        Just wait to you get to Italy or Spain, sometimes restaurants in very touristy areas will charge different service charges based on seating area. Eg nice area is 20% or more service charge, vs maybe 12.5% for a table without a view. You don’t see that until you are already in your seat, and then you have to deal with the social awkwardness of asking to move tables (which some don’t do because they are some mixture of introverted or embarrassed).
- iLoveOncall 4y ago