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I will read the article, but for the title, it isn't the world that is bad. It is humanity. We directly cause nearly the totality of our problems.

by bmitc 4y ago

stephc_int13 4y ago
Not sure if we are essentially bad a a species or infants repeating the same mistakes every few generational cycles. I think we could be collectively better if we had time to build both vast knowledge and wisdom and use it before dying of old age.
- bmitc 4y ago
  We live 50-80 years and have writing. I'm not sure there's an argument for us not having enough time or knowledge bases to grow out of infancy.
  - stephc_int13 4y ago
    And still we collectively make the same mistakes over and over again. This is not what I'd call learning. We don't remember much from the past because we were not alive, we don't read much about it, the available knowledge is extremely sparse and biased. I only recently understood the scale of the generational knowledge loss. We tend to intuitively associate longevity with old age and all of its quirkiness and frailty, but if we solved ageing, being old would not be a thing anymore.
    - bmitc 4y ago
      Right, my point is that we have the tools and capability, but we don't take advantage of them.
ghusto 4y ago
We're the only species to systematically (and of course casually) care for other species. Similarly, the only ones who travel great distances (across the world!) to care for others we've never met our even know. Only species to care for our environment. Living in equilibrium with your environment isn't the same as caring about it. You can bet that if burning down the forest got you chicks as a leapord, we'd have run out of forests a long time ago. Meanwhile, we reflect on what we've done, and make our future decisions based on that reflection. These things are "as a species", and not about individuals or political allegances in America. I'm really tired of this hip-to-be-cynical attitude that dumps all over our species, and overlooks how amazing we are. Ironically though that's one of our redeeming character traits too.
- bmitc 4y ago
  Most of your "only species to ..." are outright false or responses to problems humans created in the first place or have very nasty analogs. It may bother you or make you feel uneasy or make you not want to believe it, but humans bring an immense amount of suffering into this world. > Only species to care for our environment. Living in equilibrium with your environment isn't the same as caring about it. For example, this is so strange. So the only way to care for the environment is to first destroy it and then try to fix it?
  - vba616 4y ago
    >humans bring an immense amount of suffering into this world Is it really correct to regard humans as running the world and responsible for it, or are humans just a mechanism for making more cows? c.f. https://xkcd.com/1338/ https://xkcd.com/1338/
  - ghusto 4y ago
    > Most of your "only species to ..." are outright false or responses to problems humans created in the first place or have very nasty analogs. Won't respond to the "outright" false since you say nothing further, but in response to "we created those in the first place": That doesn't negate my message, and in fact I addressed that very point indirectly already when I said we reflect on our mistakes. No other species looks at the mess they cause and thinks "maybe we should stop doing this". > It may bother you or make you feel uneasy or make you not want to believe it, but humans bring an immense amount of suffering into this world. I've come from a place of misanthrope, so it absolutely does not bother me to believe it. In fact, I believed it nearly all my life. What does bother me though, is how little thought is given to the other side of the story, and the whole picture. We do bad things, but we are a net gain in terms of "goodness", whatever your definition of that word is. I'll go further; we are the only species to do good things, because we have freedom of choice. A dolphin doesn't sit around thinking on the moral implications of killing a shark for fun, or saving a drowning human. > For example, this is so strange. So the only way to care for the environment is to first destroy it and then try to fix it? Of course it isn't, and many people around the world such as native Americans don't do that. Where we _do_ do that however, we are the only ones to think about it afterwards and try to do better. It's so easy to be pessimistic, isn't it? To write off the whole of humanity as "bad", because that's easier than saying; "shit's hard to get right, but we're trying, and I'm part of that attempt".
throwaway23597 4y ago
Well, how does that explain the result of 7.304 for the q-hypothesis?
hoseja 4y ago
Not really. I find the blind optimizing principle of the process of evolution on all levels (most acutely felt by us are the memetic ones, generating oppressive states, evil monopolies and such) to be the most ruinous force. Very Yin-Yang actually, because that same process is the best known source of progress..

I will read the article, but for the title, it isn't the world that is bad. It is humanity. We directly cause nearly the totality of our problems.

by bmitc 4y ago

I will read the article, but for the title, it isn't the world that is bad. It is humanity. We directly cause nearly the totality of our problems.

stephc_int13 4y ago

Not sure if we are essentially bad a a species or infants repeating the same mistakes every few generational cycles. I think we could be collectively better if we had time to build both vast knowledge and wisdom and use it before dying of old age.

bmitc 4y ago
We live 50-80 years and have writing. I'm not sure there's an argument for us not having enough time or knowledge bases to grow out of infancy.
- stephc_int13 4y ago
  And still we collectively make the same mistakes over and over again. This is not what I'd call learning. We don't remember much from the past because we were not alive, we don't read much about it, the available knowledge is extremely sparse and biased. I only recently understood the scale of the generational knowledge loss. We tend to intuitively associate longevity with old age and all of its quirkiness and frailty, but if we solved ageing, being old would not be a thing anymore.
  - bmitc 4y ago
    Right, my point is that we have the tools and capability, but we don't take advantage of them.

ghusto 4y ago

We're the only species to systematically (and of course casually) care for other species. Similarly, the only ones who travel great distances (across the world!) to care for others we've never met our even know. Only species to care for our environment. Living in equilibrium with your environment isn't the same as caring about it. You can bet that if burning down the forest got you chicks as a leapord, we'd have run out of forests a long time ago. Meanwhile, we reflect on what we've done, and make our future decisions based on that reflection. These things are "as a species", and not about individuals or political allegances in America. I'm really tired of this hip-to-be-cynical attitude that dumps all over our species, and overlooks how amazing we are. Ironically though that's one of our redeeming character traits too.

bmitc 4y ago
Most of your "only species to ..." are outright false or responses to problems humans created in the first place or have very nasty analogs. It may bother you or make you feel uneasy or make you not want to believe it, but humans bring an immense amount of suffering into this world. > Only species to care for our environment. Living in equilibrium with your environment isn't the same as caring about it. For example, this is so strange. So the only way to care for the environment is to first destroy it and then try to fix it?
- vba616 4y ago
  >humans bring an immense amount of suffering into this world Is it really correct to regard humans as running the world and responsible for it, or are humans just a mechanism for making more cows? c.f. https://xkcd.com/1338/ https://xkcd.com/1338/
- ghusto 4y ago
  > Most of your "only species to ..." are outright false or responses to problems humans created in the first place or have very nasty analogs. Won't respond to the "outright" false since you say nothing further, but in response to "we created those in the first place": That doesn't negate my message, and in fact I addressed that very point indirectly already when I said we reflect on our mistakes. No other species looks at the mess they cause and thinks "maybe we should stop doing this". > It may bother you or make you feel uneasy or make you not want to believe it, but humans bring an immense amount of suffering into this world. I've come from a place of misanthrope, so it absolutely does not bother me to believe it. In fact, I believed it nearly all my life. What does bother me though, is how little thought is given to the other side of the story, and the whole picture. We do bad things, but we are a net gain in terms of "goodness", whatever your definition of that word is. I'll go further; we are the only species to do good things, because we have freedom of choice. A dolphin doesn't sit around thinking on the moral implications of killing a shark for fun, or saving a drowning human. > For example, this is so strange. So the only way to care for the environment is to first destroy it and then try to fix it? Of course it isn't, and many people around the world such as native Americans don't do that. Where we _do_ do that however, we are the only ones to think about it afterwards and try to do better. It's so easy to be pessimistic, isn't it? To write off the whole of humanity as "bad", because that's easier than saying; "shit's hard to get right, but we're trying, and I'm part of that attempt".

throwaway23597 4y ago

Well, how does that explain the result of 7.304 for the q-hypothesis?

hoseja 4y ago

Not really. I find the blind optimizing principle of the process of evolution on all levels (most acutely felt by us are the memetic ones, generating oppressive states, evil monopolies and such) to be the most ruinous force. Very Yin-Yang actually, because that same process is the best known source of progress..