9 ms·

EFF: Biometrics in Argentina, Mass Surveillance as a State Policy

61 points by riledhel 15y ago

Cieplak 15y ago
This reminds me of Argentina's recent history: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirty_War http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirty_War
- Fargren 15y ago
  I've lived in Argentina for twenty years, and I have to say there's a huge qualitative difference between this and la guerra sucia.During those years, there was actual fear that if you fought against the dictatorship, your your family or our friends could disappear without a trace any day. Nothing like that is going on today. There's certainly repression and police brutality, and signs of a police state, but on a completely different level. A few days back I saw a list of people who allegedly where every single person that has died because of state mandated police action since the end of the dictatorship. The list is 66 people long. While this makes sick to my stomach, I have only to go to my college and look at the wall to see a list of people from that college that died during the dictatorship. That list has close to one hundred and fifty people on it. Just from one college. There's just no point of comparison. Most of this people simply banished, there corpses were never found, the women were probably raped, some of their kids taken and raised by the people who tortured them to death. The current tendency towards a police state sucks, but I find it very hard to compare it with what happened between '76 an '83.
  - smokeyj 15y ago
    If you accept the police state now, you can expect that list to grow much larger than 66.
    - Fargren 15y ago
      I don't accept anything, I just think the comparison between what is happening now and what happened in the '70s is flawed. The difference is humongous. Not only because the number of people who died is smaller, but because there there's a huge difference between a person that is killed by a gunshot during a protest(violent or not, there were cases of both) and a person who just vanishes in the middle of the night and isn't heard of again.
- pvarangot 15y ago
  Oh, the military dictatorship of 1976 in a political discussion... Argentina's version of Goodwin's law still stands. The problem with that type of reasoning is that when going 30 years into the past and trying to discuss about a very specific fact, in this case being mass surveillance by state of the art technology, things get really blurry and arguments get bizarre. While one could argue a modern dictatorship could use current technology to silence its enemies in a more brutal and effective way, another position to take would be that electronic surveillance is easier to evade than actual spies following you or infiltrating your political organization. One could also explore the possibilities that arise by technology being used by the enemies of the dictators. For example, maybe Astiz cover would have been blown by someone in Madres de Plaza de Mayo when discovering his real Facebook profile/online identity.
Hrundi 15y ago
I can't believe people here in Argentina when they compare Cristina's actions with the military coup from 76'. Many will go as far as to compare Cristina with Hitler and insulting her with gender slurs. Cristina takes the blame for thwarting our freedom of expression, but she certainly did otherwise. The opposition says that freedom of expression is very low, while it is clear to me that it has never been higher. I have never seen this much freedom to say anything you want to say. This is why it saddens me when I hear people saying that we are heading into another dictatorship. Take an example, if you will, Cristina's derogation of the Calumnias e Injurias (Slander and Injuries) felony. This law has been used by torturers from the Dirty War to avoid and dilate their process. The amount of confirmation bias is incredibly high nowadays in Argentina. What do I mean by this? This government has done some really great stuff, and they also screw up other stuff up (I might say that practically every government does, depending on the looking glass). This has brought an enormous scrutiny on the media's role in deciding elections and shunning candidates they deem contrary to their agenda. Particularly, the situation boils down to Clarín's massive monopoly vs the Kirchnerismo. You may call Clarín our local version of Fox News. Cristina Kirchner and her late husband Néstor are certainly right in that there is a monopoly. They are, on the other hand, criticized by not giving press conferences and having a huge pride and elitism. Perhaps you can relate this to the republicans claiming that the Obama administration is very secretive about their intentions. I find it hard to sit in a grey area, seeing both sides trying to bring me closer to their particular interpretation of the truth. I've personally debunked many lies that were presented by either Clarín or media affiliated with the government. I think due to my unhealthy thirst for information. But other people will just close their minds and simply settle for something they've read. Cristina's opposition will stubbornly defend many things that simply aren't true, and they will never concede a point. Sadly, the same happens with Cristina's loyalists. Having said that, I'm very uneasy about this particular measure. In this country, you can very easily access someones private data such as banking history, every possession they have, even medical history. Adding an extra item to the list sure creeps me out. You may say: "Why, Hrundi, surely there must be legislation that prevents that sort of data leak, right?". Well, we do have legislation regarding that, just like the US has HIPAA. Unfortunately, this has never stopped information from leaking out. I guess its time to sand off my fingerprints!
- 15y ago
ricardobeat 15y ago
Where I live IDs are a fact of life. The government has got your picture, fingerprint, address, whatever. What's the big deal? Lying about your identity is a crime either way. Even if you don't have a national ID register, there is plenty of data to be gathered from your SSN, driver's license, business documents and countless other sources. It's unfeasible to run a civilized society without some kind of record. People expose much more dangerous information by themselves on facebook. Americans seem to enjoy making a fuss over it - I guess when you can be arrested for basically any reason you really need the option to hide. It's not the IDs you should worry about...
pvarangot 15y ago
To put the seriousness of this into perspective for the average HN reader: Short version: No one in Argentina trusts the police If what the EFF is writing about comes to pass, every single despicable and ill intended individual in this country is going to have all biometrical data about any citizen he wants at his fingertips. This includes banks, drug dealers, telemarketers, and angry ex-husbands/wives. Long version: The police in Argentina is usually a completely corrupted institution, at the mercy of whatever drug lord, human trafficking organization, or powerful family that needs its service. This has been a problem since democracy returned to Argentina about 30 years ago, even with governments massively winning elections and having a really tight control of the whole executive and legislative branch of Argentina's federal government. This corrupt structure survived many purges and reforms announced and carried on by the executive branch of the federal government, and also the government of many provinces... even when those purges are continually announced in elections and in the usual political-propaganda-spaces as the end-all crime fighting solution. This goes to the extent that Cristina is not even relying on the police for the custody of some of the key infrastructure of the country. For example, its common for protected witnesses in criminal investigations about human trafficking to be under custody of the gendarmerie, because of the obvious police involvement in those type of crimes. Now, pressured by a (measurable but between the norm) increase in violent crimes, that is as usual blown out of proportion by the press, they are going to give the federal police access to huge amounts of biometrical data.
- Hrundi 15y ago
  > they are going to give the federal police access to huge amounts of biometrical data Given our history of mishandling citizen's private information, this data will be in the hands (or at the fingertips, as you coincidentally pointed out) of practically everyone with a slight interest in no time. That is my biggest fear.
- wslh 15y ago
  I would add that nobody trusts the intelligence service here. For example if you are a journalist, or just a public figure, and say something against the government they can tamper your phone as if you were a possible terrorist.
slavak 15y ago
Pretty much the same kind of database is going to be created in Israel, pushed forward by a single Member of Knesset, while ignoring advice from leading security experts. (see for example Adi Shamir, aka The "S" in "RSA.") The law is currently in a two-year "trial" period (despite the fact that nobody bothered defining metrics and requirements for gauging the success or failure of the trial), following which it will become mandatory for every citizen under punishment of [possible] incarceration. Let's just say I'm going to jail in two years...
- metachris 15y ago
  I'd like to know more... Could you add some references?
  - slavak 15y ago
    A good starting point: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3816629,00.html http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3816629,00.html Mentioning (briefly) Eli Biham's opinion on the database: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4069922,00.html http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4069922,00.html Mentioning Adi Shamir's security suggestions: http://innovya.com/2011/09/information-technology-israel-new-biometric-id-database-raises-significant-privacy-concerns/ http://innovya.com/2011/09/information-technology-israel-new... I've been unable to find an English source detailing the specifics of Shamir's suggestion to the Knesset. I'll add it here if I'm able to find one.
janus 15y ago
In my opinion, biometrics won't yield much more data about the average citizen than what is currently available in the wild. The lack of personal information privacy in Argentina is astonishing. Having lived in other countries, I find it really scary that every retail store asks you for your DNI number the first time you make a purchase, and that public databases exist in the web with your address, phone number, date of birth, upper billing limit (with the CUIT number), etc. What's also funny, a lot of software here use the DNI number as the primary key for their associates / customer / people tables. Any other country would find this unnacceptable.

61 points by riledhel 15y ago

This reminds me of Argentina's recent history: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirty_War http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirty_War

Fargren 15y ago
I've lived in Argentina for twenty years, and I have to say there's a huge qualitative difference between this and la guerra sucia.During those years, there was actual fear that if you fought against the dictatorship, your your family or our friends could disappear without a trace any day. Nothing like that is going on today. There's certainly repression and police brutality, and signs of a police state, but on a completely different level. A few days back I saw a list of people who allegedly where every single person that has died because of state mandated police action since the end of the dictatorship. The list is 66 people long. While this makes sick to my stomach, I have only to go to my college and look at the wall to see a list of people from that college that died during the dictatorship. That list has close to one hundred and fifty people on it. Just from one college. There's just no point of comparison. Most of this people simply banished, there corpses were never found, the women were probably raped, some of their kids taken and raised by the people who tortured them to death. The current tendency towards a police state sucks, but I find it very hard to compare it with what happened between '76 an '83.
- smokeyj 15y ago
  If you accept the police state now, you can expect that list to grow much larger than 66.
  - Fargren 15y ago
    I don't accept anything, I just think the comparison between what is happening now and what happened in the '70s is flawed. The difference is humongous. Not only because the number of people who died is smaller, but because there there's a huge difference between a person that is killed by a gunshot during a protest(violent or not, there were cases of both) and a person who just vanishes in the middle of the night and isn't heard of again.
pvarangot 15y ago
Oh, the military dictatorship of 1976 in a political discussion... Argentina's version of Goodwin's law still stands. The problem with that type of reasoning is that when going 30 years into the past and trying to discuss about a very specific fact, in this case being mass surveillance by state of the art technology, things get really blurry and arguments get bizarre. While one could argue a modern dictatorship could use current technology to silence its enemies in a more brutal and effective way, another position to take would be that electronic surveillance is easier to evade than actual spies following you or infiltrating your political organization. One could also explore the possibilities that arise by technology being used by the enemies of the dictators. For example, maybe Astiz cover would have been blown by someone in Madres de Plaza de Mayo when discovering his real Facebook profile/online identity.

Hrundi 15y ago

I can't believe people here in Argentina when they compare Cristina's actions with the military coup from 76'. Many will go as far as to compare Cristina with Hitler and insulting her with gender slurs. Cristina takes the blame for thwarting our freedom of expression, but she certainly did otherwise. The opposition says that freedom of expression is very low, while it is clear to me that it has never been higher. I have never seen this much freedom to say anything you want to say. This is why it saddens me when I hear people saying that we are heading into another dictatorship. Take an example, if you will, Cristina's derogation of the Calumnias e Injurias (Slander and Injuries) felony. This law has been used by torturers from the Dirty War to avoid and dilate their process. The amount of confirmation bias is incredibly high nowadays in Argentina. What do I mean by this? This government has done some really great stuff, and they also screw up other stuff up (I might say that practically every government does, depending on the looking glass). This has brought an enormous scrutiny on the media's role in deciding elections and shunning candidates they deem contrary to their agenda. Particularly, the situation boils down to Clarín's massive monopoly vs the Kirchnerismo. You may call Clarín our local version of Fox News. Cristina Kirchner and her late husband Néstor are certainly right in that there is a monopoly. They are, on the other hand, criticized by not giving press conferences and having a huge pride and elitism. Perhaps you can relate this to the republicans claiming that the Obama administration is very secretive about their intentions. I find it hard to sit in a grey area, seeing both sides trying to bring me closer to their particular interpretation of the truth. I've personally debunked many lies that were presented by either Clarín or media affiliated with the government. I think due to my unhealthy thirst for information. But other people will just close their minds and simply settle for something they've read. Cristina's opposition will stubbornly defend many things that simply aren't true, and they will never concede a point. Sadly, the same happens with Cristina's loyalists. Having said that, I'm very uneasy about this particular measure. In this country, you can very easily access someones private data such as banking history, every possession they have, even medical history. Adding an extra item to the list sure creeps me out. You may say: "Why, Hrundi, surely there must be legislation that prevents that sort of data leak, right?". Well, we do have legislation regarding that, just like the US has HIPAA. Unfortunately, this has never stopped information from leaking out. I guess its time to sand off my fingerprints!

15y ago

ricardobeat 15y ago

Where I live IDs are a fact of life. The government has got your picture, fingerprint, address, whatever. What's the big deal? Lying about your identity is a crime either way. Even if you don't have a national ID register, there is plenty of data to be gathered from your SSN, driver's license, business documents and countless other sources. It's unfeasible to run a civilized society without some kind of record. People expose much more dangerous information by themselves on facebook. Americans seem to enjoy making a fuss over it - I guess when you can be arrested for basically any reason you really need the option to hide. It's not the IDs you should worry about...

pvarangot 15y ago

To put the seriousness of this into perspective for the average HN reader: Short version: No one in Argentina trusts the police If what the EFF is writing about comes to pass, every single despicable and ill intended individual in this country is going to have all biometrical data about any citizen he wants at his fingertips. This includes banks, drug dealers, telemarketers, and angry ex-husbands/wives. Long version: The police in Argentina is usually a completely corrupted institution, at the mercy of whatever drug lord, human trafficking organization, or powerful family that needs its service. This has been a problem since democracy returned to Argentina about 30 years ago, even with governments massively winning elections and having a really tight control of the whole executive and legislative branch of Argentina's federal government. This corrupt structure survived many purges and reforms announced and carried on by the executive branch of the federal government, and also the government of many provinces... even when those purges are continually announced in elections and in the usual political-propaganda-spaces as the end-all crime fighting solution. This goes to the extent that Cristina is not even relying on the police for the custody of some of the key infrastructure of the country. For example, its common for protected witnesses in criminal investigations about human trafficking to be under custody of the gendarmerie, because of the obvious police involvement in those type of crimes. Now, pressured by a (measurable but between the norm) increase in violent crimes, that is as usual blown out of proportion by the press, they are going to give the federal police access to huge amounts of biometrical data.

Hrundi 15y ago
> they are going to give the federal police access to huge amounts of biometrical data Given our history of mishandling citizen's private information, this data will be in the hands (or at the fingertips, as you coincidentally pointed out) of practically everyone with a slight interest in no time. That is my biggest fear.
wslh 15y ago
I would add that nobody trusts the intelligence service here. For example if you are a journalist, or just a public figure, and say something against the government they can tamper your phone as if you were a possible terrorist.

slavak 15y ago

Pretty much the same kind of database is going to be created in Israel, pushed forward by a single Member of Knesset, while ignoring advice from leading security experts. (see for example Adi Shamir, aka The "S" in "RSA.") The law is currently in a two-year "trial" period (despite the fact that nobody bothered defining metrics and requirements for gauging the success or failure of the trial), following which it will become mandatory for every citizen under punishment of [possible] incarceration. Let's just say I'm going to jail in two years...

metachris 15y ago
I'd like to know more... Could you add some references?
- slavak 15y ago
  A good starting point: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3816629,00.html http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3816629,00.html Mentioning (briefly) Eli Biham's opinion on the database: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4069922,00.html http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4069922,00.html Mentioning Adi Shamir's security suggestions: http://innovya.com/2011/09/information-technology-israel-new-biometric-id-database-raises-significant-privacy-concerns/ http://innovya.com/2011/09/information-technology-israel-new... I've been unable to find an English source detailing the specifics of Shamir's suggestion to the Knesset. I'll add it here if I'm able to find one.

janus 15y ago

In my opinion, biometrics won't yield much more data about the average citizen than what is currently available in the wild. The lack of personal information privacy in Argentina is astonishing. Having lived in other countries, I find it really scary that every retail store asks you for your DNI number the first time you make a purchase, and that public databases exist in the web with your address, phone number, date of birth, upper billing limit (with the CUIT number), etc. What's also funny, a lot of software here use the DNI number as the primary key for their associates / customer / people tables. Any other country would find this unnacceptable.