4 ms·

Those same arguments apply to several other professions where it is not customary to tip. The reality is that tips are expected only for the lower social/econom

by ot 4y ago

Those same arguments apply to several other professions where it is not customary to tip. The reality is that tips are expected only for the lower social/economic classes, where it is acceptable that the price for labor is set based on the whims of the customer instead of being pre-agreed (which, personally, I find degrading). Right-leaning people like it because it creates a power dynamic. Left-leaning people like it because they delude themselves that they're helping the working class. In both cases, it boils down to paternalism, and all other reasons are rationalization.

tptacek 4y ago
It's true that you can run any industry without tipping, but that's not really saying anything interesting, because you also demonstrably can run industries with tipping. I don't like tipping for the power dynamic or because I'm "helping the working class"; I just get the logic of it, and am fine playing along.
- godelski 4y ago
  It's true that you can run any industry with tipping, but that's not really saying anything interesting, because you also demonstrably can run industries without tipping. I like tipping for the power dynamic and because I'm "helping the working class"; I get the logic of it, and am fine playing along.
  - tptacek 4y ago
    I don't claim there's anything interesting about observing that tipping exists; it obviously does, and is a system that has been functioning in America for generations.
    - lxgr 4y ago
      Is it on a good track to continue existing, though? TFA is specifically describing how the kind and number of situations in which a tip is expected/asked for (if only by a payment terminal interface) is rapidly expanding – and if every service is tipped, no service is tipped.
      - tptacek 4y ago
        I don't follow your logic. If every service has an element of optional, variable, explicit customer sharing of labor costs, no service does?
        lxgr 4y ago
        A tipping decision is a decision in the end, which are drawing from a limited mental resource, according to some research. The way in which our mind typically handles repeatedly having to decide is by developing some simple heuristics and effectively running on autopilot most of the time, following them mechanically. I could imagine a not too distant future in which tipping evolves into a quasi-fixed-rate quasi-tax, with only exceptional or atrocious service warranting a deviation from a cemented social norm.
        tptacek 4y ago
        What you describe in your last sentence is, I think, exactly how restaurant tipping works. It's best to look at it as a 15% labor tax, with an optional 5-10% upcharge if you're happy (or have a general policy of retaining a reputation as a good tipper). Another similar example (probably outdated): airport skycaps. An example of a tipping system in America that doesn't work that way (yet) is hotel housekeeping; a surprising number of people don't even know that there's a tipping custom there at all. The "quasi tax" thing sounds alarming, but it doesn't bother me at all; it's just another way of expressing costs and prices. Things will cost what they cost one way or the other. If tipping becomes so common that everything has 5-15% tacked onto it (I doubt it'll happen, but we'll stipulate), base prices will fall. Businesses can't simply banish demand curves! There is ultimately a market clearing price.
        lxgr 4y ago
        > [...] a 15% labor tax, with an optional 5-10% upcharge if you're happy [...] Ah, yes, that is in fact almost exactly my mental model for how to tip in restaurants or cafes (albeit with a conversion factor to the rate I was socialized with). What always blindsides me is tipping in a place I (or even some locals, apparently?) don't expect it. And generally speaking, I much prefer taking social cues from local friends or other patrons than from a device.
    - godelski 4y ago
      The issue is that you're vehemently defending this practice. As far as I can tell the only reason for this is simply because of momentum. None of the arguments you are making really make much sense. There's strong evidence to the contrary in fact. Not only is the practice particularly unique to America (and Canada), but the practice and laws defending it just enable wage theft (employers not paying minimum wages by claiming tip credits that don't exist). The practice was developed during feudalism and was a form of oppression. The current practice also divides the working class and prevents them from working together in a larger coalition advocating for a larger minimum wage. No one here is really against the concept of tipping, but people are upset about its expansion and that the practice is essentially required. You have said that the money is optional, but we all know that this isn't exactly true. Technically/legally yes, but in practice this doesn't work out. People aren't tipping for service, they are tipping to avoid bad service (as many have said here) and to avoid social stigma from their peers. This is not the system you have laid out in your many comments, this is just a convoluted form of class oppression and wage theft. Sometimes we need to reevaluate things we've been doing just for the sake of doing. Momentum is not a reason to continue a harmful practice.
      - tptacek 4y ago
        The issue is that we disagree. I don't think vehemence enters into it. The appeal to feudalism isn't persuasive; all sorts of things are traceable back to feudalism (something about feudalism being a pit stop most of our cultures took at some point), and not all of them are bad. People shouldn't "tip for service". That's not how tips work. Tip mechanically: at a restaurant, divide by 10 and double (keep it simple include the drinks in the tab). If you're sitting there stewing about whether you achieved the requisite level of service, you're the feudalist.
- ot 4y ago
  You're fine playing along because you're on the winning side of the deal. Say you were a software contractor, would you be ok with working for a customer based only on an "expected price range" with a 4x spread, over which the customer has complete unilateral discretion, decided only after the work has been completed? If your first instinct is "that's different", I'd like to know how.
  - tptacek 4y ago
    In what way am I on the winning side of this deal, and how might I find myself on the losing side of it? If you're thinking that I'm beating out the people who can't afford to tip, you should bear in mind that the abolition of tipping would mechanically imply prices raising across the board to the average level of the previous tipping. TANSTAAFL.
    - ot 4y ago
      > how might I find myself on the losing side of it? Like I mentioned above, by having your livelihood depend on the whims of customers that may be offended by not having been treated with sufficient deference. > abolition of tipping would mechanically imply prices raising across the board to the average level of the previous tipping. TANSTAAFL. Quite the strawman, I never claimed tipping is extra cost, I just find the practice degrading. I would be very much in favor of bundling all costs in the displayed prices, like it happens in the rest of the world.
      - tptacek 4y ago
        Most people's livelihoods depend to some extent on other people's whims. I tip mechanically, and think everybody else should too: as I said, it's a cost sharing mechanism. Part of the problem I think nerds like us have with tipping is that they think it's something they have to figure out, like a Yelp star rating. No: just divide by 10 and double, end of story. I'll go you one further and candidly tell you that what I perceive lurking in the subtext of HN's biannual tipping freakout is the frustration some nerds have that they don't get to inflict their whims on American servers, because their tips are expected to be automatic. They feel ripped off by the expectation. That's the fucked up belief, right there. You can feel free to ask one of your server friends how degraded they feel by your tips. I think you'll be surprised.
EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 4y ago
I read about a study that found that the most pro-tip group of people are older men ... that is the way to buy love for them.

by ot 4y ago

tptacek 4y ago

It's true that you can run any industry without tipping, but that's not really saying anything interesting, because you also demonstrably can run industries with tipping. I don't like tipping for the power dynamic or because I'm "helping the working class"; I just get the logic of it, and am fine playing along.

godelski 4y ago
It's true that you can run any industry with tipping, but that's not really saying anything interesting, because you also demonstrably can run industries without tipping. I like tipping for the power dynamic and because I'm "helping the working class"; I get the logic of it, and am fine playing along.
- tptacek 4y ago
  I don't claim there's anything interesting about observing that tipping exists; it obviously does, and is a system that has been functioning in America for generations.
  - lxgr 4y ago
    Is it on a good track to continue existing, though? TFA is specifically describing how the kind and number of situations in which a tip is expected/asked for (if only by a payment terminal interface) is rapidly expanding – and if every service is tipped, no service is tipped.
    - tptacek 4y ago
      I don't follow your logic. If every service has an element of optional, variable, explicit customer sharing of labor costs, no service does?
      - lxgr 4y ago
        A tipping decision is a decision in the end, which are drawing from a limited mental resource, according to some research. The way in which our mind typically handles repeatedly having to decide is by developing some simple heuristics and effectively running on autopilot most of the time, following them mechanically. I could imagine a not too distant future in which tipping evolves into a quasi-fixed-rate quasi-tax, with only exceptional or atrocious service warranting a deviation from a cemented social norm.
        tptacek 4y ago
        What you describe in your last sentence is, I think, exactly how restaurant tipping works. It's best to look at it as a 15% labor tax, with an optional 5-10% upcharge if you're happy (or have a general policy of retaining a reputation as a good tipper). Another similar example (probably outdated): airport skycaps. An example of a tipping system in America that doesn't work that way (yet) is hotel housekeeping; a surprising number of people don't even know that there's a tipping custom there at all. The "quasi tax" thing sounds alarming, but it doesn't bother me at all; it's just another way of expressing costs and prices. Things will cost what they cost one way or the other. If tipping becomes so common that everything has 5-15% tacked onto it (I doubt it'll happen, but we'll stipulate), base prices will fall. Businesses can't simply banish demand curves! There is ultimately a market clearing price.
        lxgr 4y ago
        > [...] a 15% labor tax, with an optional 5-10% upcharge if you're happy [...] Ah, yes, that is in fact almost exactly my mental model for how to tip in restaurants or cafes (albeit with a conversion factor to the rate I was socialized with). What always blindsides me is tipping in a place I (or even some locals, apparently?) don't expect it. And generally speaking, I much prefer taking social cues from local friends or other patrons than from a device.
  - godelski 4y ago
    The issue is that you're vehemently defending this practice. As far as I can tell the only reason for this is simply because of momentum. None of the arguments you are making really make much sense. There's strong evidence to the contrary in fact. Not only is the practice particularly unique to America (and Canada), but the practice and laws defending it just enable wage theft (employers not paying minimum wages by claiming tip credits that don't exist). The practice was developed during feudalism and was a form of oppression. The current practice also divides the working class and prevents them from working together in a larger coalition advocating for a larger minimum wage. No one here is really against the concept of tipping, but people are upset about its expansion and that the practice is essentially required. You have said that the money is optional, but we all know that this isn't exactly true. Technically/legally yes, but in practice this doesn't work out. People aren't tipping for service, they are tipping to avoid bad service (as many have said here) and to avoid social stigma from their peers. This is not the system you have laid out in your many comments, this is just a convoluted form of class oppression and wage theft. Sometimes we need to reevaluate things we've been doing just for the sake of doing. Momentum is not a reason to continue a harmful practice.
    - tptacek 4y ago
      The issue is that we disagree. I don't think vehemence enters into it. The appeal to feudalism isn't persuasive; all sorts of things are traceable back to feudalism (something about feudalism being a pit stop most of our cultures took at some point), and not all of them are bad. People shouldn't "tip for service". That's not how tips work. Tip mechanically: at a restaurant, divide by 10 and double (keep it simple include the drinks in the tab). If you're sitting there stewing about whether you achieved the requisite level of service, you're the feudalist.
ot 4y ago
You're fine playing along because you're on the winning side of the deal. Say you were a software contractor, would you be ok with working for a customer based only on an "expected price range" with a 4x spread, over which the customer has complete unilateral discretion, decided only after the work has been completed? If your first instinct is "that's different", I'd like to know how.
- tptacek 4y ago
  In what way am I on the winning side of this deal, and how might I find myself on the losing side of it? If you're thinking that I'm beating out the people who can't afford to tip, you should bear in mind that the abolition of tipping would mechanically imply prices raising across the board to the average level of the previous tipping. TANSTAAFL.
  - ot 4y ago
    > how might I find myself on the losing side of it? Like I mentioned above, by having your livelihood depend on the whims of customers that may be offended by not having been treated with sufficient deference. > abolition of tipping would mechanically imply prices raising across the board to the average level of the previous tipping. TANSTAAFL. Quite the strawman, I never claimed tipping is extra cost, I just find the practice degrading. I would be very much in favor of bundling all costs in the displayed prices, like it happens in the rest of the world.
    - tptacek 4y ago
      Most people's livelihoods depend to some extent on other people's whims. I tip mechanically, and think everybody else should too: as I said, it's a cost sharing mechanism. Part of the problem I think nerds like us have with tipping is that they think it's something they have to figure out, like a Yelp star rating. No: just divide by 10 and double, end of story. I'll go you one further and candidly tell you that what I perceive lurking in the subtext of HN's biannual tipping freakout is the frustration some nerds have that they don't get to inflict their whims on American servers, because their tips are expected to be automatic. They feel ripped off by the expectation. That's the fucked up belief, right there. You can feel free to ask one of your server friends how degraded they feel by your tips. I think you'll be surprised.

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 4y ago

I read about a study that found that the most pro-tip group of people are older men ... that is the way to buy love for them.