4 ms·

Looking forward to the day where the rest of Not-New-Zealand goes "actually, yeah, let's just ban this nonsense, this industry does not need to exist", and then

Looking forward to the day where the rest of Not-New-Zealand goes "actually, yeah, let's just ban this nonsense, this industry does not need to exist", and then have that industry cease to exist over the course of a, really too generous, "only existing addicts can buy your product" period.

colechristensen 4y ago
Why? Like I get that it’s a nuisance when other people don’t have a choice but be forced to be around it which makes restaurant and workplace bans make sense, can’t you let people make their own choices though? I like to smoke very occasionally and am not at all addicted, a lot of people are like this. Way too little to have meaningful effect sizes on long term health.
- TheRealPomax 4y ago
  Time to read up on how NZ implemented it. Already smoke, even if incidentally? You're 100% unaffected, you can still buy them until you die from old age. Too young? Cool, you're never going to get ciggies sold to you, and you're not going to miss suddenly no longer have access to them because you never did anyway. No one loses. It's a very long term solution, and one that (the current forms of) the US or Europe could never pass.
  - colechristensen 4y ago
    That is missing the point of letting people make their own choices.
    - pixl97 4y ago
      I'm glad I got that choice of breathing my dads secondhand smoke growing up! Um...
      - serf 4y ago
        he made that choice for you. children have choices made for them in droves. children rarely have the ability -- or are given the opportunity -- to make choices for themselves. Not a lot of infants going around asking for circumcisions and ear-piercings, but...
        flangola7 4y ago
        > Not a lot of infants going around asking for circumcisions and ear-piercings, but... Those are wrong too, what's your point?
    - cycomanic 4y ago
      Before we let people make choices about smoking, I'd rather let them do heroin or cocaine. At least that does not force me to inhale their smoke. But as a more general answer, we (as society) always make trade-offs with letting people make their own choices, and forbidding behavior for the better of society. The boundaries will always be somewhat arbitrary. That said, the economic costs of smoking to society is significant and there are some corporations that essentially make a killing on it (don't get me started on the anti-science propaganda that they funded. If people want to smoke tobacco in their own home, sure let them grow their own, so at least there is not a corporation who tries to peddle smoking to children in order to improve their profits.
    - TheRealPomax 4y ago
      Not really, it feels like you forgot the distinction between personal choice, where the decision affects only you, and group choice, where a decision is made for, and affects everyone in a group. Smoking falls in that second category, so it's not just your decision to make, the entire group gets to weigh in. So they did. Democracy works, even if (especially if) you don't like the result.
  - gnicholas 4y ago
    What happens to immigrants or tourists? Is vaping included? I don't smoke but am curious about how this type of phase out system works.
    - todfox 4y ago
      Why should anyone care? Let them tough it out.
      - gnicholas 4y ago
        I imagine industries that depend on tourism would care, if a decent chunk of potential tourists are smokers. I personally would prefer if there were no smokers (I have asthma), but I could understand that tourism-focused industries would be concerned about turning off groups of tourists that include at least one smoker.
        TheRealPomax 4y ago
        New Zealand is an ecotourism destination, officially and explicitly marketed as such. If anything, banning smoking would increase the perceived quality of their stay for anyone in that segment.
  - totetsu 4y ago
    Are tourists able to purchase Tabacco?
  - dmm 4y ago
    There are a lot of people who insist that prohibition never works. I wonder if this is successful it will change their minds.
    - ch4s3 4y ago
      I think there’s some nuance here. You can’t totally prohibit something people really want to do, but you can pretty effectively prohibit something almost no one wants to do or where there is a very good substitute. Having a tiny landmass, and no land borders also helps. It’s possible to grown tobacco hydroponically but I’m not sure if anyone would bother unless there was an overnight hard ban.
      - livueta 4y ago
        That's a reasonable line of thought, but NZ already has a fairly robust black market for tobacco products: https://www.economist.com/leaders/2021/12/17/new-zealands-plan-to-outlaw-smoking-for-the-next-generation-is-misguided https://www.economist.com/leaders/2021/12/17/new-zealands-pl... > a tenth of the tobacco consumed in 2019 in New Zealand was illicit. which is broadly similar to the US market, if admittedly on the low end: https://nap.nationalacademies.org/catalog/19016/understanding-the-us-illicit-tobacco-market-characteristics-policy-context-and https://nap.nationalacademies.org/catalog/19016/understandin... > the portion of the total U.S. tobacco market represented by illicit sales has grown in recent years and is now between 8.5 percent and 21 percent I think a lot of people underestimate how difficult combating smuggling is, even with a tiny landmass and no land borders. Nobody's checking every container, much less package.
        ch4s3 4y ago
        That’s very true, and I wouldn’t claim it could be 100% effective. Even East Germany had rock albums smuggled in.
    - klyrs 4y ago
      Nicotine is still available to the younger generation in the form of vapes. It isn't a strict prohibition, it's an effort at harm reduction by turning people away from the worst method of ingestion. And, yeah, time will tell.
  - LAC-Tech 4y ago
    I still remember the ad campaigns from the 90s. "I saw a girl walking down the street and I was like yeaaaahh and then i saw her light up a cigarette and I was like nah.... smoking usn't sixy"
  - chrisco255 4y ago
    Thank goodness. I don't want to ever model the US after some captive remote island social experiment in the southern pacific.
LAC-Tech 4y ago
We can't even stop methamphetamine or main street money laundering, this cigarette ban is not going to be effective.

colechristensen 4y ago

Why? Like I get that it’s a nuisance when other people don’t have a choice but be forced to be around it which makes restaurant and workplace bans make sense, can’t you let people make their own choices though? I like to smoke very occasionally and am not at all addicted, a lot of people are like this. Way too little to have meaningful effect sizes on long term health.

TheRealPomax 4y ago
Time to read up on how NZ implemented it. Already smoke, even if incidentally? You're 100% unaffected, you can still buy them until you die from old age. Too young? Cool, you're never going to get ciggies sold to you, and you're not going to miss suddenly no longer have access to them because you never did anyway. No one loses. It's a very long term solution, and one that (the current forms of) the US or Europe could never pass.
- colechristensen 4y ago
  That is missing the point of letting people make their own choices.
  - pixl97 4y ago
    I'm glad I got that choice of breathing my dads secondhand smoke growing up! Um...
    - serf 4y ago
      he made that choice for you. children have choices made for them in droves. children rarely have the ability -- or are given the opportunity -- to make choices for themselves. Not a lot of infants going around asking for circumcisions and ear-piercings, but...
      - flangola7 4y ago
        > Not a lot of infants going around asking for circumcisions and ear-piercings, but... Those are wrong too, what's your point?
  - cycomanic 4y ago
    Before we let people make choices about smoking, I'd rather let them do heroin or cocaine. At least that does not force me to inhale their smoke. But as a more general answer, we (as society) always make trade-offs with letting people make their own choices, and forbidding behavior for the better of society. The boundaries will always be somewhat arbitrary. That said, the economic costs of smoking to society is significant and there are some corporations that essentially make a killing on it (don't get me started on the anti-science propaganda that they funded. If people want to smoke tobacco in their own home, sure let them grow their own, so at least there is not a corporation who tries to peddle smoking to children in order to improve their profits.
  - TheRealPomax 4y ago
    Not really, it feels like you forgot the distinction between personal choice, where the decision affects only you, and group choice, where a decision is made for, and affects everyone in a group. Smoking falls in that second category, so it's not just your decision to make, the entire group gets to weigh in. So they did. Democracy works, even if (especially if) you don't like the result.
- gnicholas 4y ago
  What happens to immigrants or tourists? Is vaping included? I don't smoke but am curious about how this type of phase out system works.
  - todfox 4y ago
    Why should anyone care? Let them tough it out.
    - gnicholas 4y ago
      I imagine industries that depend on tourism would care, if a decent chunk of potential tourists are smokers. I personally would prefer if there were no smokers (I have asthma), but I could understand that tourism-focused industries would be concerned about turning off groups of tourists that include at least one smoker.
      - TheRealPomax 4y ago
        New Zealand is an ecotourism destination, officially and explicitly marketed as such. If anything, banning smoking would increase the perceived quality of their stay for anyone in that segment.
- totetsu 4y ago
  Are tourists able to purchase Tabacco?
- dmm 4y ago
  There are a lot of people who insist that prohibition never works. I wonder if this is successful it will change their minds.
  - ch4s3 4y ago
    I think there’s some nuance here. You can’t totally prohibit something people really want to do, but you can pretty effectively prohibit something almost no one wants to do or where there is a very good substitute. Having a tiny landmass, and no land borders also helps. It’s possible to grown tobacco hydroponically but I’m not sure if anyone would bother unless there was an overnight hard ban.
    - livueta 4y ago
      That's a reasonable line of thought, but NZ already has a fairly robust black market for tobacco products: https://www.economist.com/leaders/2021/12/17/new-zealands-plan-to-outlaw-smoking-for-the-next-generation-is-misguided https://www.economist.com/leaders/2021/12/17/new-zealands-pl... > a tenth of the tobacco consumed in 2019 in New Zealand was illicit. which is broadly similar to the US market, if admittedly on the low end: https://nap.nationalacademies.org/catalog/19016/understanding-the-us-illicit-tobacco-market-characteristics-policy-context-and https://nap.nationalacademies.org/catalog/19016/understandin... > the portion of the total U.S. tobacco market represented by illicit sales has grown in recent years and is now between 8.5 percent and 21 percent I think a lot of people underestimate how difficult combating smuggling is, even with a tiny landmass and no land borders. Nobody's checking every container, much less package.
      - ch4s3 4y ago
        That’s very true, and I wouldn’t claim it could be 100% effective. Even East Germany had rock albums smuggled in.
  - klyrs 4y ago
    Nicotine is still available to the younger generation in the form of vapes. It isn't a strict prohibition, it's an effort at harm reduction by turning people away from the worst method of ingestion. And, yeah, time will tell.
- LAC-Tech 4y ago
  I still remember the ad campaigns from the 90s. "I saw a girl walking down the street and I was like yeaaaahh and then i saw her light up a cigarette and I was like nah.... smoking usn't sixy"
- chrisco255 4y ago
  Thank goodness. I don't want to ever model the US after some captive remote island social experiment in the southern pacific.

LAC-Tech 4y ago

We can't even stop methamphetamine or main street money laundering, this cigarette ban is not going to be effective.