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> The followup argument is often "well they are still being under paid." While I can buy this argument, I do not think the solution is tipping The alternative

> The followup argument is often "well they are still being under paid." While I can buy this argument, I do not think the solution is tipping The alternative is getting a restaurant to entirely change its identity. Their POS system will always have a spot for tip on a receipt. Their prices are based on the fact that they expect customers to tip the servers at least 15-25%. It's a monumental change. It's not just "pay the servers at least $15/hr and turn off tipping". Nobody I've ever met who waits tables is happy with $120/night out the door pretax ($15/hr * 8) For a restaurant to pay a server what they make now ($150-$300/night tips), their labor cost would be through the roof and they would have to raise the price of the food. The customer wouldn't like that. Lose lose lose.

godelski 4y ago
> For a restaurant to pay a server what they make now ($150-$300/night tips), their labor cost would be through the roof and they would have to raise the price of the food. Is that every night or just weekends? Because everyone I've known that has cleared that kind of money has only done so on weekends (Friday/Saturday), and works at higher end or very popular restaurants. I agree that an extra $15-$30/hr would be an insane increase, but if that is spread out over the other 5 days a week then this is much closer to a $3-$6/hr increase. Large, but not obtuse considering a server is probably serving many meals an hour on average. I wouldn't expect food prices to go up very much to cover such a change. As a customer I'd be far happier with that version too. To be clear, I'm against abolishing tips, I just don't think it should be the social expectation for an average establishment.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
asdff 4y ago
Tipping for service is a little different than the tipping thats been getting out of control imo. Places are signing up for these square readers and whatever else is sold to small businesses to scan a credit card, and the default settings seem to be to add a tip. These would be jobs where the worker would never expect a tip normally, maybe a tip jar with a buck or two in it a shift if that. Plus you are expected to tip before you even get whatever service when you do it at point of sale like this, unlike the traditional restaurant approach where you tip at the very end of the meal even after you've closed out the rest of the bill.
- MuffinFlavored 4y ago
  i’ve ran into this at a smoothie shop it’s implied you’re tipping for them taking your order then making your smoothie
  - asdff 4y ago
    I thought that labor was baked into the cost of the smoothie? Are you supposed to tip on a takeout order too since its the same work?
Swizec 4y ago
> The customer wouldn't like that. I’m already paying that much. If you keep the same total price but put it on your menu instead of making it an end-of-meal surprise, that is much preferred thanks.
- MuffinFlavored 4y ago
  I used ChatGPT to help talk through this with me: > If the average waiter works a dinner shift from 5pm-11pm, waits on 40 customers during this shift, each customer has a check average of $40 and tips on average 20%, the waiter would walk with $320 in tips. > In this example, the total cost of labor for the waiter is $55/hr for 6 hours, which is $55*6 = $330. The total number of customers served during the shift is 40. > In order to eliminate the need for customers to tip, the restaurant would need to increase the cost of their food by $330 tips / 40 customers = $8.25 per check. > Therefore, they would need to increase the cost of their food by $8.25, so that the check average would be $40 + $8.25 = $48.25 per check.
  - Swizec 4y ago
    My argument is that I’m already paying $48.25 per check and don’t particularly care about the restaurant’s cost structure. Passing wages (and in SF health care) onto me feels about as petty as an attorney adding “$5 for pens” into a $4000 invoice. I’m still sore about that 3 years later.
    - MuffinFlavored 4y ago
      I'm sorry, you are 100% right. I don't know why I thought it was more complicated than that. Thank you for pointing this out to me.
oh_sigh 4y ago
Perhaps we just need a quick break where customers realize that they're paying for the service, one way or another. Your hamburger costing $20 and you leaving $5 is no different from your hamburger costing $25. It's really only the poor tippers who shouldn't want this transition to a fixed wage with the costs added to the food. Currently, they're getting subsidized service from good tippers.
- getoffmyyawn 4y ago
  For what you say to be true, it relies on everyone tipping the same amount all the time. The problem is that people do not tip this way. Tipping in the USA has been studied for 25+ years and the results are clear: The amount a given waiter will receive in tips is far more influenced by their physical appearance, race, and gender, than the quality of service they provide. For example, a white woman with blonde hair and large breasts will, all things being equal, make more in tips than anyone else working in the same establishment[0]. Paying $25 for that burger is fine if that is the advertised price. Everyone in the service industry deserves to be paid an equal wage for equal quality of work. Despite all intentions, tipping ensures this is not the case. That alone is enough to justify abolishing tipping as a form of primary compensation. 0. https://static.secure.website/wscfus/5261551/uploads/ServerAppearance1-3-08.pdf https://static.secure.website/wscfus/5261551/uploads/ServerA...
courgette 4y ago
Honest question : how do you think it works literally anywhere outside of Canada and the US? We have bar and restaurants, too. People working there have kids, mortgage. I would even say that it’s more a “real” job than in the US. “Real”, in the sense that, in the US, I’ve seen friends in their 40’s switching industry because they want to have kids. While for instance in France their is actual school you go to before become a waiter in the higher end places. Those are jobs were you are well compensated and that you can expect to keep for a while ( with a promotion path )
- MuffinFlavored 4y ago
  > how do you think it works literally anywhere outside of Canada and the US? Being 100% honest, I was of the opinion that because of tipping in America, waiters/waitresses stand a chance to make $150-$300+ whereas in Europe, you probably make less than that.
  - courgette 4y ago
    What do you mean "$150-$300", net, a day ? Yah. No. You checked for France on the statistical bureau website ( INSEE ) Average Net salary is 1558 euros / month, calculated from 196k salaries. Figures are from 2021. With that you get unemployment, retirement and healthcare. It can be considered "play money" if you are sorta careless. Not great, but you can definitely lives on that and find lodging. ( In Paris that will be a flatshare )

godelski 4y ago

> For a restaurant to pay a server what they make now ($150-$300/night tips), their labor cost would be through the roof and they would have to raise the price of the food. Is that every night or just weekends? Because everyone I've known that has cleared that kind of money has only done so on weekends (Friday/Saturday), and works at higher end or very popular restaurants. I agree that an extra $15-$30/hr would be an insane increase, but if that is spread out over the other 5 days a week then this is much closer to a $3-$6/hr increase. Large, but not obtuse considering a server is probably serving many meals an hour on average. I wouldn't expect food prices to go up very much to cover such a change. As a customer I'd be far happier with that version too. To be clear, I'm against abolishing tips, I just don't think it should be the social expectation for an average establishment.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

asdff 4y ago

Tipping for service is a little different than the tipping thats been getting out of control imo. Places are signing up for these square readers and whatever else is sold to small businesses to scan a credit card, and the default settings seem to be to add a tip. These would be jobs where the worker would never expect a tip normally, maybe a tip jar with a buck or two in it a shift if that. Plus you are expected to tip before you even get whatever service when you do it at point of sale like this, unlike the traditional restaurant approach where you tip at the very end of the meal even after you've closed out the rest of the bill.

MuffinFlavored 4y ago
i’ve ran into this at a smoothie shop it’s implied you’re tipping for them taking your order then making your smoothie
- asdff 4y ago
  I thought that labor was baked into the cost of the smoothie? Are you supposed to tip on a takeout order too since its the same work?

Swizec 4y ago

> The customer wouldn't like that. I’m already paying that much. If you keep the same total price but put it on your menu instead of making it an end-of-meal surprise, that is much preferred thanks.

MuffinFlavored 4y ago
I used ChatGPT to help talk through this with me: > If the average waiter works a dinner shift from 5pm-11pm, waits on 40 customers during this shift, each customer has a check average of $40 and tips on average 20%, the waiter would walk with $320 in tips. > In this example, the total cost of labor for the waiter is $55/hr for 6 hours, which is $55*6 = $330. The total number of customers served during the shift is 40. > In order to eliminate the need for customers to tip, the restaurant would need to increase the cost of their food by $330 tips / 40 customers = $8.25 per check. > Therefore, they would need to increase the cost of their food by $8.25, so that the check average would be $40 + $8.25 = $48.25 per check.
- Swizec 4y ago
  My argument is that I’m already paying $48.25 per check and don’t particularly care about the restaurant’s cost structure. Passing wages (and in SF health care) onto me feels about as petty as an attorney adding “$5 for pens” into a $4000 invoice. I’m still sore about that 3 years later.
  - MuffinFlavored 4y ago
    I'm sorry, you are 100% right. I don't know why I thought it was more complicated than that. Thank you for pointing this out to me.

oh_sigh 4y ago

Perhaps we just need a quick break where customers realize that they're paying for the service, one way or another. Your hamburger costing $20 and you leaving $5 is no different from your hamburger costing $25. It's really only the poor tippers who shouldn't want this transition to a fixed wage with the costs added to the food. Currently, they're getting subsidized service from good tippers.

getoffmyyawn 4y ago
For what you say to be true, it relies on everyone tipping the same amount all the time. The problem is that people do not tip this way. Tipping in the USA has been studied for 25+ years and the results are clear: The amount a given waiter will receive in tips is far more influenced by their physical appearance, race, and gender, than the quality of service they provide. For example, a white woman with blonde hair and large breasts will, all things being equal, make more in tips than anyone else working in the same establishment[0]. Paying $25 for that burger is fine if that is the advertised price. Everyone in the service industry deserves to be paid an equal wage for equal quality of work. Despite all intentions, tipping ensures this is not the case. That alone is enough to justify abolishing tipping as a form of primary compensation. 0. https://static.secure.website/wscfus/5261551/uploads/ServerAppearance1-3-08.pdf https://static.secure.website/wscfus/5261551/uploads/ServerA...

courgette 4y ago

Honest question : how do you think it works literally anywhere outside of Canada and the US? We have bar and restaurants, too. People working there have kids, mortgage. I would even say that it’s more a “real” job than in the US. “Real”, in the sense that, in the US, I’ve seen friends in their 40’s switching industry because they want to have kids. While for instance in France their is actual school you go to before become a waiter in the higher end places. Those are jobs were you are well compensated and that you can expect to keep for a while ( with a promotion path )

MuffinFlavored 4y ago
> how do you think it works literally anywhere outside of Canada and the US? Being 100% honest, I was of the opinion that because of tipping in America, waiters/waitresses stand a chance to make $150-$300+ whereas in Europe, you probably make less than that.
- courgette 4y ago
  What do you mean "$150-$300", net, a day ? Yah. No. You checked for France on the statistical bureau website ( INSEE ) Average Net salary is 1558 euros / month, calculated from 196k salaries. Figures are from 2021. With that you get unemployment, retirement and healthcare. It can be considered "play money" if you are sorta careless. Not great, but you can definitely lives on that and find lodging. ( In Paris that will be a flatshare )