6 ms·

I can't believe these comments, what is wrong with you people? if you are a highly paid technology worker, when you go to service establishments where people a

by zzzeek 4y ago

I can't believe these comments, what is wrong with you people? if you are a highly paid technology worker, when you go to service establishments where people are working hourly and are desperate to work 40-50 hour weeks just to pay their rent and feed their kids, you *tip*. *generously*. the US has an insanely out of control income inequality issue that is very intractible and structural. If you are so fortunate as to find yourself on the winning end of it, as is the case for a vast portion of Hacker News members, yes, (WHILE SAID STRUCTURAL INEQUALITY CONTINUES TO NOT BE SOLVED BY OTHER MEANS), you should be transferring to the members of your local community who are not so fortunate (AND ARE EXPLICITLY ASKING FOR TIPS AND/OR WORKING WHERE TIPPING IS CUSTOMARY) and you should be happy to do it. hi - not as *a subsitute for raising the mimimum wage*, of course not, of COURSE wages should be raised. of COURSE if everyone were paid fairly in the first place, THAT WOULD BE GREAT. however, at the moment, the federal minimum wage hasn't been raised in 14 YEARS, so FOR THE MOMENT, until said inequality issue can be structurally modified, workers really could use tips. that's why they are asking for them.

godelski 4y ago
I'd rather just increase the minimum wage. Why do this pick and choose thing? If the minimum is not enough then it isn't enough for __everyone__.
- tptacek 4y ago
  Servers in fine dining restaurants make much more than the minimum wage on tips. $25-$30/hr isn't a crazy high amount for a server to be making; $50-60k/yr is also a thing.
  - djur 4y ago
    A friend of mine told me flat out that although he thinks tip abolition is the right thing to do policywise, he and his waiter friends personally hope it doesn't happen because it would effectively result in a pay cut for them (even though it would probably increase wages for BOH workers, waiters at low-volume restaurants, etc.).
  - godelski 4y ago
    Sure, don't abolish tips, just make it not the norm. Or rather return the custom to fine dining. We're all just upset that we're being asked for tips at places like McDonalds or takeout. That's just a push back to feudalism
    - tptacek 4y ago
      I don't think I've ever tipped at a fast food restaurant; even the fancy ones. (I tip at coffee shops, of course.)
      - lxgr 4y ago
        How come? What makes coffee shop staff intrinsically more deserving of tips than those working at a fast food restaurant?
        tptacek 4y ago
        Deserve's got nothing to do with it! When I shop at places that clearly establish an expectation of tipping, I tip, because I can read a straightforward social cue about the arrangements the business operates under. If I objected to tipping there, I wouldn't do business with them.
        quadrifoliate 4y ago
        > I can read a straightforward social cue about the arrangements the business operates under What are some examples of such "straightforward social cues"? I would genuinely like to know, because the only social cues at coffee shops I have seen pre-Square terminal have been super context-dependent. For example, you tip if it looks like the baristas are kind of overwhelmed – e.g. at a super busy time like the morning rush; or if you waltzed in with a large group and ordered seven lattes or something. Because the baristas are gracefully operating under pressure and getting the coffee to you on time, you tip them. After Square terminals, it seems like tips are expected even if there is literally no one else in the shop because the app says so. Which is not really a social cue.
- zzzeek 4y ago
  Well the federal minimum wage hasn't been increased in ... 14 YEARS. So...maybe tip in the meantime? not to mention current legal frameworks allow workers who are tipped to be paid less than minimum wage. as well as some workers are undocumented and are victims of an obsolete immigration system that has not been fixed for decades due to political gridlock. so maybe just TIP, at the very least.
  - jjav 4y ago
    > So...maybe tip in the meantime? Do you tip every employee in every industry that might be making minimum wage?
    - zzzeek 4y ago
      no, I tip in establishments where the workers are service workers who explicitly asking for tips, as well as for specific transactions where tipping is customary hence expected. note that restaurant workers in the US make less than minimum wage before tips in many cases.
      - jjav 4y ago
        > no, I tip in establishments where the workers are service workers who explicitly asking for tips, as well as for specific transactions where tipping is customary hence expected. Hopefully you see the inconsistency here? You mentioned that minimum wage has not increased in a long time so people making are underpaid (true). And that tipping is somehow the solution. But unless you tip everyone you ever interact with that might be making minimum wage, that's a highly inconsistent position. Instead we can simply raise minimum wage to a living wage and outlaw tipping. Fair to everyone.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
tmnvix 4y ago
I live in a place without a tipping culture and significant income inequality. I really don't like the idea that service in a bar might be prioritised according to who gives the biggest tips. That seems like highlighting inequality to me. It would go down very badly here. A queue is a queue. Queues are fair.
- zzzeek 4y ago
  ive never heard of servers or bartenders doing that. they are pretty good here about being fair to people.
  - joegahona 4y ago
    Bartenders and other service-industry workers absolutely prioritize good tippers. I was a valet-parking attendant in my 20s, which allowed me to pay my way through college, and you’d better believe we gave better service to the regulars who threw us a $20 on the way in. If a large function breaks and two guests hand you their claim check, one with a $5 and one with nothing else, who do you think is getting their car first?
    - zzzeek 4y ago
      confession, I actually dont have a high opinion about college-age kids who do valet parking :) you're never going to have a system where people aren't doing what you describe, someone's always going to slip them a 20 or whatever. how do you stop that? Talking here about bartenders with a crowded bar to handle. They tend to be a little more mature and I've never had issues with bigger tippers making it impossible for me to get served.
purpleblue 4y ago
No. Workers should be paid a fair wage and all prices should be transparent. As well, different types of work deserve different types of pay. End of story. Your "oh these poor, hopeless blue collar workers that desperately need our help" is just your own classism, looking down on them and making you feel better about yourself by thinking you're helping them survive, like small swimmer fish eating the leftover from the shark that you are.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- acdha 4y ago
  Note the “for the moment” part in the comment you’re replying to. Until we have successfully voted in fair wages and robust enforcement, those workers are depending on tips to get by.
jjav 4y ago
> you tip. generously No, absolutely not, that is not the correct solution to the very real problem of underpaid staff. Instead I want laws to ban tipping and force jobs to pay a reasonable living wage at a minimum. Yes the product will cost more in restaurants but so be it, it's the honest way to do it.
- acdha 4y ago
  Push for those laws. Patronize restaurants which pay well. Until that’s universal, tip generously anywhere you aren’t certain pays their works great wages. Good intentions don’t help anyone make rent.
  - mikhael28 4y ago
    I used to work as a janitor for minimum wage. I never got a tip. How was that fair? Did I not provide a service? You sound like someone who used to work as an employee who received tips.
    - acdha 4y ago
      I wasn't saying that was fair, and have supported raising the minimum wage every time it's been on the ballot. A key difference is that in most of the U.S. restaurant workers have a much lower minimum wage with the expectation that tips will make up for that. That's why I mentioned the difference between what you should do before anything changes and afterwards: if someone's base pay is $2.30/hour and tips are supposed to bring that up, not tipping is probably costing them money their budget is based on. None of that says that we shouldn't be trying to get both jobs to be more humane.
      - mikhael28 4y ago
        Okay, yeah, sure - it's a very good point. I live in WA, where the minimum wage is the same for every profession. So, that argument just isn't valid for me - unfortunately. States like Alabama keep finding new ways to screw states like Washington.
rr808 4y ago
Agreed the inequality is a problem. However making people who serve wealthy people the highest paid is a bad solution.
djur 4y ago
Every day I benefit from the labor of people who make less than most waiters, and I can't tip them. Either they're not physically present to be tipped or company policy prohibits them from accepting tips. I think it's fair to point out the absurdity that it's considered socially necessary to make additional payments to waitstaff and delivery drivers but not to dishwashers and package handlers.
mikhael28 4y ago
Buy a plane ticket. Plenty of other countries have the same structural inequality issues, and don't have a tipping culture.
mpawelski 4y ago
> I can't believe these comments, what is wrong with you people? I had a similar feeling while reading comments here, but then I reminded myself that most of people commenting here are from the US and are used to this strange tipping culture. Oh wait, you mean comments criticizing American tipping culture? ;-) Seriously though, I wished Americans would keep this broken tipping culture to their own country. Unfortunately they are polluting other places (especially the ones popular for American tourist) and introduce this broken "mandatory 20-30% tipping" madness.

by zzzeek 4y ago

godelski 4y ago

I'd rather just increase the minimum wage. Why do this pick and choose thing? If the minimum is not enough then it isn't enough for __everyone__.

tptacek 4y ago
Servers in fine dining restaurants make much more than the minimum wage on tips. $25-$30/hr isn't a crazy high amount for a server to be making; $50-60k/yr is also a thing.
- djur 4y ago
  A friend of mine told me flat out that although he thinks tip abolition is the right thing to do policywise, he and his waiter friends personally hope it doesn't happen because it would effectively result in a pay cut for them (even though it would probably increase wages for BOH workers, waiters at low-volume restaurants, etc.).
- godelski 4y ago
  Sure, don't abolish tips, just make it not the norm. Or rather return the custom to fine dining. We're all just upset that we're being asked for tips at places like McDonalds or takeout. That's just a push back to feudalism
  - tptacek 4y ago
    I don't think I've ever tipped at a fast food restaurant; even the fancy ones. (I tip at coffee shops, of course.)
    - lxgr 4y ago
      How come? What makes coffee shop staff intrinsically more deserving of tips than those working at a fast food restaurant?
      - tptacek 4y ago
        Deserve's got nothing to do with it! When I shop at places that clearly establish an expectation of tipping, I tip, because I can read a straightforward social cue about the arrangements the business operates under. If I objected to tipping there, I wouldn't do business with them.
        quadrifoliate 4y ago
        > I can read a straightforward social cue about the arrangements the business operates under What are some examples of such "straightforward social cues"? I would genuinely like to know, because the only social cues at coffee shops I have seen pre-Square terminal have been super context-dependent. For example, you tip if it looks like the baristas are kind of overwhelmed – e.g. at a super busy time like the morning rush; or if you waltzed in with a large group and ordered seven lattes or something. Because the baristas are gracefully operating under pressure and getting the coffee to you on time, you tip them. After Square terminals, it seems like tips are expected even if there is literally no one else in the shop because the app says so. Which is not really a social cue.
zzzeek 4y ago
Well the federal minimum wage hasn't been increased in ... 14 YEARS. So...maybe tip in the meantime? not to mention current legal frameworks allow workers who are tipped to be paid less than minimum wage. as well as some workers are undocumented and are victims of an obsolete immigration system that has not been fixed for decades due to political gridlock. so maybe just TIP, at the very least.
- jjav 4y ago
  > So...maybe tip in the meantime? Do you tip every employee in every industry that might be making minimum wage?
  - zzzeek 4y ago
    no, I tip in establishments where the workers are service workers who explicitly asking for tips, as well as for specific transactions where tipping is customary hence expected. note that restaurant workers in the US make less than minimum wage before tips in many cases.
    - jjav 4y ago
      > no, I tip in establishments where the workers are service workers who explicitly asking for tips, as well as for specific transactions where tipping is customary hence expected. Hopefully you see the inconsistency here? You mentioned that minimum wage has not increased in a long time so people making are underpaid (true). And that tipping is somehow the solution. But unless you tip everyone you ever interact with that might be making minimum wage, that's a highly inconsistent position. Instead we can simply raise minimum wage to a living wage and outlaw tipping. Fair to everyone.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]

tmnvix 4y ago

I live in a place without a tipping culture and significant income inequality. I really don't like the idea that service in a bar might be prioritised according to who gives the biggest tips. That seems like highlighting inequality to me. It would go down very badly here. A queue is a queue. Queues are fair.

zzzeek 4y ago
ive never heard of servers or bartenders doing that. they are pretty good here about being fair to people.
- joegahona 4y ago
  Bartenders and other service-industry workers absolutely prioritize good tippers. I was a valet-parking attendant in my 20s, which allowed me to pay my way through college, and you’d better believe we gave better service to the regulars who threw us a $20 on the way in. If a large function breaks and two guests hand you their claim check, one with a $5 and one with nothing else, who do you think is getting their car first?
  - zzzeek 4y ago
    confession, I actually dont have a high opinion about college-age kids who do valet parking :) you're never going to have a system where people aren't doing what you describe, someone's always going to slip them a 20 or whatever. how do you stop that? Talking here about bartenders with a crowded bar to handle. They tend to be a little more mature and I've never had issues with bigger tippers making it impossible for me to get served.

purpleblue 4y ago

No. Workers should be paid a fair wage and all prices should be transparent. As well, different types of work deserve different types of pay. End of story. Your "oh these poor, hopeless blue collar workers that desperately need our help" is just your own classism, looking down on them and making you feel better about yourself by thinking you're helping them survive, like small swimmer fish eating the leftover from the shark that you are.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
acdha 4y ago
Note the “for the moment” part in the comment you’re replying to. Until we have successfully voted in fair wages and robust enforcement, those workers are depending on tips to get by.

jjav 4y ago

> you tip. generously No, absolutely not, that is not the correct solution to the very real problem of underpaid staff. Instead I want laws to ban tipping and force jobs to pay a reasonable living wage at a minimum. Yes the product will cost more in restaurants but so be it, it's the honest way to do it.

acdha 4y ago
Push for those laws. Patronize restaurants which pay well. Until that’s universal, tip generously anywhere you aren’t certain pays their works great wages. Good intentions don’t help anyone make rent.
- mikhael28 4y ago
  I used to work as a janitor for minimum wage. I never got a tip. How was that fair? Did I not provide a service? You sound like someone who used to work as an employee who received tips.
  - acdha 4y ago
    I wasn't saying that was fair, and have supported raising the minimum wage every time it's been on the ballot. A key difference is that in most of the U.S. restaurant workers have a much lower minimum wage with the expectation that tips will make up for that. That's why I mentioned the difference between what you should do before anything changes and afterwards: if someone's base pay is $2.30/hour and tips are supposed to bring that up, not tipping is probably costing them money their budget is based on. None of that says that we shouldn't be trying to get both jobs to be more humane.
    - mikhael28 4y ago
      Okay, yeah, sure - it's a very good point. I live in WA, where the minimum wage is the same for every profession. So, that argument just isn't valid for me - unfortunately. States like Alabama keep finding new ways to screw states like Washington.

rr808 4y ago

Agreed the inequality is a problem. However making people who serve wealthy people the highest paid is a bad solution.

djur 4y ago

Every day I benefit from the labor of people who make less than most waiters, and I can't tip them. Either they're not physically present to be tipped or company policy prohibits them from accepting tips. I think it's fair to point out the absurdity that it's considered socially necessary to make additional payments to waitstaff and delivery drivers but not to dishwashers and package handlers.

mikhael28 4y ago

Buy a plane ticket. Plenty of other countries have the same structural inequality issues, and don't have a tipping culture.

mpawelski 4y ago

> I can't believe these comments, what is wrong with you people? I had a similar feeling while reading comments here, but then I reminded myself that most of people commenting here are from the US and are used to this strange tipping culture. Oh wait, you mean comments criticizing American tipping culture? ;-) Seriously though, I wished Americans would keep this broken tipping culture to their own country. Unfortunately they are polluting other places (especially the ones popular for American tourist) and introduce this broken "mandatory 20-30% tipping" madness.