6 ms·

Truly, what compels a person to do such a thing? I too have struggled heavily with depression in the past, but I've never once felt the urge to repeatedly vanda

Truly, what compels a person to do such a thing? I too have struggled heavily with depression in the past, but I've never once felt the urge to repeatedly vandalize anyone's property. Like, I just don't understand what's to gain.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
Sometimes it isn't about gaining anything so much as just wanting the satisfaction making someone else suffer.
genderwhy 4y ago
I'm not an expert, but my understanding is that the normal levels of inhibitions and reading social cues aren't present in many stalking cases. There is a belief that if they are just persistent enough, their target will see their attempts as affection and fall head over heals for them. Fundamentally, I believe we need to do more for people like this. Safety nets and mental health and, if needed, in patient care. Would this have happened if the person had access to excellent therapy, medication, and support? Maybe, maybe not, but I would like to think that it would happen a whole lot less.
- armchairhacker 4y ago
  Social skills are complicated and many people have autism. It’s not an excuse, it’s an explanation for why some people are like this. I feel like a lot of these situations can be avoided with some simple, hard rules: primarily a) no means no when it comes to anything flirting, and b) don’t become obsessed with any one person at least until you’re dating*. There’s a lot of nuance in social communication, but I really don’t see a case when you should break any of these hard rules. So many instances of serious harassment come down to breaking one or all of them. Idk how but the world would be much better if we could somehow just convince people to never, ever break them, and even if they are already broken, to just stop. * There’s also c) stop doing something “romantic” or “social” if you notice it makes others uncomfortable. But I suspect some people just can’t notice discomfort. The key words are “romantic” or “social” (and for a it is “flirting”) because sometimes you have to boss people around and say things which make them uncomfortable, like that they need to get out of the way or their job performance needs to improve, but you should never be making people awkward or uncomfortable if you are “just chatting”; and you will never get a girlfriend or boyfriend by scaring or pressuring them. Well, maybe you will if they’re not very smart, but that’s morally wrong, or if you’re high-profile or in Iraq, but you’re not and that’s also morally wrong. Like I said, nuance
- ryandrake 4y ago
  > There is a belief that if they are just persistent enough, their target will see their attempts as affection and fall head over heals for them. Basically, the plot of every '80s and '90s Romantic Comedy. Entertainment of that decade left entire generations with warped views of courting and consent!
- jm__87 4y ago
  > There is a belief that if they are just persistent enough, their target will see their attempts as affection and fall head over heals for them. Depends on the kind of stalker. I think you get these delusional obsessive people, but you also get abusive exes who stalk their ex to keep them from moving on or try to scare and intimidate and sometimes assault or kill their new partners.
- heavyset_go 4y ago
  > Would this have happened if the person had access to excellent therapy, medication, and support? Many of them would learn how to better conceal their behaviors and get away with what they're doing. It's the same reason that traditional therapy is detrimental when it comes to people with NPD, abusers, anti-social disorders, etc: they just learn how to weaponize earnest therapists along with what they learn in therapy against their victims.
mabbo 4y ago
I think it's important to remember what mental illness is, at it's core- an important organ that isn't working correctly. The brain is the thing that tells you what is and isn't right. It provides motivation, impulses, everything. And it can break in any number of ways- depression is merely one of them. This person is ill. That doesn't excuse them, but it does help explain them.
- barry-cotter 4y ago
  People have different values and desires. That you cannot imagine doing something without being mentally ill doesn’t mean others can’t. The world is much more diverse than the upper middle class of early 21st century Anglophone progressive culture.
- heavyset_go 4y ago
  I do think some stalking cases can be explained by conduct disorders, where people are significantly impaired to the extent that they aren't capable of understanding or controlling antisocial behavior. However, I do not think the vast majority of stalkers are impaired in that way. If you're so impaired that you're stalking others, the rest of your life will also be a shitshow because of your impairment. Holding down a job, maintaining friendly and familial relationships, securing housing, staying out of prison, etc are going to be out of reach for people who are genuinely that impaired. The vast majority of people who abuse and stalk their love interests are not that impaired. They're able to have real careers and relationships that would otherwise be prevented from real impairment. These people don't stalk or abuse other people in their lives, just the people they believe they're entitled to stalk and abuse. They are not impaired, they are selective about their actions and successfully compartmentalize those behaviors in ways that prevent them from negatively affecting the rest of their lives. That shows planning, intent and control, not impairment from illness.
98codes 4y ago
There's no reason to believe the guy's story at all. It could be real (from their POV), or it could be someone making up something they know is unlikely to be called out by the "good guys".
- fragmede 4y ago
  Are you saying that there are people that just go around, telling lies? On my Internet?
heavyset_go 4y ago
On Netflix there are two series called "I Am a Stalker" and "I Am a Killer". Guess which one was more disturbing? The killers were more sympathetic. I can understand killing your kidnapper and rapist to escape, even if it is technically unlawful killing, I cannot understand stalking people who want nothing to do with you for years. At the end of the day, stalkers truly believe they are entitled to stalk and hurt their victims. They 100% believe they have the right to terrorize their "love" interests, for example. They think their victims deserve it. The incredulous sentiment from stalkers always seems to be "what would you do in this situation", as if the only logical solution they faced was stalking their victims. When it comes to stalkers, it's a matter of entitlement and seriously fucked up beliefs.
wpietri 4y ago
If you're curious, I recommend the book, "Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men". It busts a lot of myths and gives a good explanation of what abusers get out of their behavior. One important myth is, "He can't control himself". E.g., he's not good at managing anger, so he needs classes. But it turns out a lot of abusive people are perfectly good at managing their anger except when the target is, say, a vulnerable woman. A person who is equally shitty to their boss and their coworkers? Mental illness could be an explanation. But one who's terrible only to the intern? That's just an abuser.
- steve_adams_86 4y ago
  > He can't control himself I think the thing that would shock many people is that abusers have often adopted methods of harm and subjugation that they internalized and came to consider normal, justified, and correct. They're executing from a place of intent and necessity, not chaos. They witness themselves doing it from a wildly different perspective than those around them would, and they may think the worst thing they do is get "a little heavy handed" or something. They might say that perhaps they got too loud or angry, but whatever they did was close enough to in line with what was necessitated by their target's bad behaviour. It could range from keeping a partner "in line" with passive aggressive ridicule, physical violence, abject control (denying access to car keys, no going out past 7pm, can't eat x amount of food, etc), to being so relentlessly discouraging and belittling that the partner feels helpless and trapped. No matter what it is they're doing, they whole-heartedly believe it's deserved and they're operating with as much control as anyone typically has. When we witness their behaviour we see a monster. And yet they're going about their work as though they are the one being inconvenienced by their incompetent/immoral/stupid/whatever partner. Many of these people would never dream of kicking their dog or something but they've completely normalized verbally and/or physically abusing people they have intimate relationships with. What would leave you absolutely mortified with yourself is simply necessary to these people. This is often why it's best to end these relationships. Someone who has normalized abuse could change, but there is a very good chance that you shouldn't wait to find out.
  - wpietri 4y ago
thih9 4y ago
I guess they see it as a way to express their frustration with the world. Or perhaps they hope to intimidate someone into loving them. Or maybe it’s something different, but similarly broken. Would be great to see more focus on mental helth care, I guess this is the way to prevent situations like this one.
annie_muss 4y ago
Unfortunately, I can offer some insight. In the past I have been obsessive. Had I not got help I could have ended up like the stalker in the story. It starts out innocent enough. Dating involves lots of subtle signals and cues. I remember calling someone many many times in one day, thinking "There's a possibility I'm being strange, but there's also a chance that she's just not home. If I don't call and call again I could miss my chance. And this is my only chance, if I don't make sure she knows I want to date her I'm going to end up alone forever". I'm sure you can see the cognitive distortions at play here. I certainly acknowledged that my behavior was unusual, but I was so fixated on the person that I couldn't stop myself. I suspect this is what happened with the person in the story. They noticed the sister and became obsessed. First trying to do things "the right way" with super-likes etc within the dating app. After that, finding the instagram and so on. It slowly ramps up. The damage to the car etc I have less insight on, but perhaps it relates to the fact that being ignored by the target of your obsession feels so bad that any kind of reaction, good or bad, would feel better. Or perhaps it's revenge for "making me feel bad". I think the stalker probably doesn't have much insight to their own behavior. I only gained insight years after the fact. In general, I think dating apps don't help with this kind of behavior. They perpetuate the idea that there are "perfect matches" and that once you find your perfect partner everything will click into place. It's just like Hollywood movies, the couple gets together and then the credits roll. In reality, that's the very beginning. We should be talking about the work and effort that goes into building a relationship, as well as giving people the tools to notice when their behavior is not acceptable.
- Major_Grooves 4y ago
  thank you for the insight.
- plusminusplus 4y ago
  Wow, thank you for your honesty (especially on a site where you can't delete comments).
  - ithinkso 4y ago
    > (especially on a site where you can't delete comments) Though I think the username annie_muss is a play on anonymous

AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago

Sometimes it isn't about gaining anything so much as just wanting the satisfaction making someone else suffer.

genderwhy 4y ago

I'm not an expert, but my understanding is that the normal levels of inhibitions and reading social cues aren't present in many stalking cases. There is a belief that if they are just persistent enough, their target will see their attempts as affection and fall head over heals for them. Fundamentally, I believe we need to do more for people like this. Safety nets and mental health and, if needed, in patient care. Would this have happened if the person had access to excellent therapy, medication, and support? Maybe, maybe not, but I would like to think that it would happen a whole lot less.

armchairhacker 4y ago
Social skills are complicated and many people have autism. It’s not an excuse, it’s an explanation for why some people are like this. I feel like a lot of these situations can be avoided with some simple, hard rules: primarily a) no means no when it comes to anything flirting, and b) don’t become obsessed with any one person at least until you’re dating*. There’s a lot of nuance in social communication, but I really don’t see a case when you should break any of these hard rules. So many instances of serious harassment come down to breaking one or all of them. Idk how but the world would be much better if we could somehow just convince people to never, ever break them, and even if they are already broken, to just stop. * There’s also c) stop doing something “romantic” or “social” if you notice it makes others uncomfortable. But I suspect some people just can’t notice discomfort. The key words are “romantic” or “social” (and for a it is “flirting”) because sometimes you have to boss people around and say things which make them uncomfortable, like that they need to get out of the way or their job performance needs to improve, but you should never be making people awkward or uncomfortable if you are “just chatting”; and you will never get a girlfriend or boyfriend by scaring or pressuring them. Well, maybe you will if they’re not very smart, but that’s morally wrong, or if you’re high-profile or in Iraq, but you’re not and that’s also morally wrong. Like I said, nuance
ryandrake 4y ago
> There is a belief that if they are just persistent enough, their target will see their attempts as affection and fall head over heals for them. Basically, the plot of every '80s and '90s Romantic Comedy. Entertainment of that decade left entire generations with warped views of courting and consent!
jm__87 4y ago
> There is a belief that if they are just persistent enough, their target will see their attempts as affection and fall head over heals for them. Depends on the kind of stalker. I think you get these delusional obsessive people, but you also get abusive exes who stalk their ex to keep them from moving on or try to scare and intimidate and sometimes assault or kill their new partners.
heavyset_go 4y ago
> Would this have happened if the person had access to excellent therapy, medication, and support? Many of them would learn how to better conceal their behaviors and get away with what they're doing. It's the same reason that traditional therapy is detrimental when it comes to people with NPD, abusers, anti-social disorders, etc: they just learn how to weaponize earnest therapists along with what they learn in therapy against their victims.

mabbo 4y ago

I think it's important to remember what mental illness is, at it's core- an important organ that isn't working correctly. The brain is the thing that tells you what is and isn't right. It provides motivation, impulses, everything. And it can break in any number of ways- depression is merely one of them. This person is ill. That doesn't excuse them, but it does help explain them.

barry-cotter 4y ago
People have different values and desires. That you cannot imagine doing something without being mentally ill doesn’t mean others can’t. The world is much more diverse than the upper middle class of early 21st century Anglophone progressive culture.
heavyset_go 4y ago
I do think some stalking cases can be explained by conduct disorders, where people are significantly impaired to the extent that they aren't capable of understanding or controlling antisocial behavior. However, I do not think the vast majority of stalkers are impaired in that way. If you're so impaired that you're stalking others, the rest of your life will also be a shitshow because of your impairment. Holding down a job, maintaining friendly and familial relationships, securing housing, staying out of prison, etc are going to be out of reach for people who are genuinely that impaired. The vast majority of people who abuse and stalk their love interests are not that impaired. They're able to have real careers and relationships that would otherwise be prevented from real impairment. These people don't stalk or abuse other people in their lives, just the people they believe they're entitled to stalk and abuse. They are not impaired, they are selective about their actions and successfully compartmentalize those behaviors in ways that prevent them from negatively affecting the rest of their lives. That shows planning, intent and control, not impairment from illness.

98codes 4y ago

There's no reason to believe the guy's story at all. It could be real (from their POV), or it could be someone making up something they know is unlikely to be called out by the "good guys".

fragmede 4y ago
Are you saying that there are people that just go around, telling lies? On my Internet?

heavyset_go 4y ago

On Netflix there are two series called "I Am a Stalker" and "I Am a Killer". Guess which one was more disturbing? The killers were more sympathetic. I can understand killing your kidnapper and rapist to escape, even if it is technically unlawful killing, I cannot understand stalking people who want nothing to do with you for years. At the end of the day, stalkers truly believe they are entitled to stalk and hurt their victims. They 100% believe they have the right to terrorize their "love" interests, for example. They think their victims deserve it. The incredulous sentiment from stalkers always seems to be "what would you do in this situation", as if the only logical solution they faced was stalking their victims. When it comes to stalkers, it's a matter of entitlement and seriously fucked up beliefs.

wpietri 4y ago

If you're curious, I recommend the book, "Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men". It busts a lot of myths and gives a good explanation of what abusers get out of their behavior. One important myth is, "He can't control himself". E.g., he's not good at managing anger, so he needs classes. But it turns out a lot of abusive people are perfectly good at managing their anger except when the target is, say, a vulnerable woman. A person who is equally shitty to their boss and their coworkers? Mental illness could be an explanation. But one who's terrible only to the intern? That's just an abuser.

steve_adams_86 4y ago
> He can't control himself I think the thing that would shock many people is that abusers have often adopted methods of harm and subjugation that they internalized and came to consider normal, justified, and correct. They're executing from a place of intent and necessity, not chaos. They witness themselves doing it from a wildly different perspective than those around them would, and they may think the worst thing they do is get "a little heavy handed" or something. They might say that perhaps they got too loud or angry, but whatever they did was close enough to in line with what was necessitated by their target's bad behaviour. It could range from keeping a partner "in line" with passive aggressive ridicule, physical violence, abject control (denying access to car keys, no going out past 7pm, can't eat x amount of food, etc), to being so relentlessly discouraging and belittling that the partner feels helpless and trapped. No matter what it is they're doing, they whole-heartedly believe it's deserved and they're operating with as much control as anyone typically has. When we witness their behaviour we see a monster. And yet they're going about their work as though they are the one being inconvenienced by their incompetent/immoral/stupid/whatever partner. Many of these people would never dream of kicking their dog or something but they've completely normalized verbally and/or physically abusing people they have intimate relationships with. What would leave you absolutely mortified with yourself is simply necessary to these people. This is often why it's best to end these relationships. Someone who has normalized abuse could change, but there is a very good chance that you shouldn't wait to find out.
- wpietri 4y ago

thih9 4y ago

I guess they see it as a way to express their frustration with the world. Or perhaps they hope to intimidate someone into loving them. Or maybe it’s something different, but similarly broken. Would be great to see more focus on mental helth care, I guess this is the way to prevent situations like this one.

annie_muss 4y ago

Unfortunately, I can offer some insight. In the past I have been obsessive. Had I not got help I could have ended up like the stalker in the story. It starts out innocent enough. Dating involves lots of subtle signals and cues. I remember calling someone many many times in one day, thinking "There's a possibility I'm being strange, but there's also a chance that she's just not home. If I don't call and call again I could miss my chance. And this is my only chance, if I don't make sure she knows I want to date her I'm going to end up alone forever". I'm sure you can see the cognitive distortions at play here. I certainly acknowledged that my behavior was unusual, but I was so fixated on the person that I couldn't stop myself. I suspect this is what happened with the person in the story. They noticed the sister and became obsessed. First trying to do things "the right way" with super-likes etc within the dating app. After that, finding the instagram and so on. It slowly ramps up. The damage to the car etc I have less insight on, but perhaps it relates to the fact that being ignored by the target of your obsession feels so bad that any kind of reaction, good or bad, would feel better. Or perhaps it's revenge for "making me feel bad". I think the stalker probably doesn't have much insight to their own behavior. I only gained insight years after the fact. In general, I think dating apps don't help with this kind of behavior. They perpetuate the idea that there are "perfect matches" and that once you find your perfect partner everything will click into place. It's just like Hollywood movies, the couple gets together and then the credits roll. In reality, that's the very beginning. We should be talking about the work and effort that goes into building a relationship, as well as giving people the tools to notice when their behavior is not acceptable.

Major_Grooves 4y ago
thank you for the insight.
plusminusplus 4y ago
Wow, thank you for your honesty (especially on a site where you can't delete comments).
- ithinkso 4y ago
  > (especially on a site where you can't delete comments) Though I think the username annie_muss is a play on anonymous