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Maybe obvious, but uh: don’t fucking do this! I get it, I'm an older brother, I would wanna go ballistic too. But the fact that these guys skipped over "notify

by ketzo 4y ago

Maybe obvious, but uh: don’t fucking do this! I get it, I'm an older brother, I would wanna go ballistic too. But the fact that these guys skipped over "notify the police" and went straight to "seek out in-person confrontation" is insane! Stalkers are not people in their right mind. Staking out and planning to “citizen’s arrest”(???) someone who has repeatedly visited late at night to threaten and harass is NOT SAFE FOR ANYONE INVOLVED. Do not ever physically escalate with a stalker! Collect evidence and get the authorities involved!

tantalor 4y ago
The part that jumped out was, > we get ready to make a “citizen’s arrest” That is so stupid. They are very lucky they didn't get the chance to try that.
- Major_Grooves 4y ago
  it's Scotland. Making a citizen's arrest is not so crazy.
ceejayoz 4y ago
The problem is the cops tend not to give a shit.
- ketzo 4y ago
  I understand that. But you cannot assume they won't help. These guys didn't even try contacting the police before hatching a late-night scheme. For what it's worth, in my (regrettably several) experiences with stalkers/harassers, this situation would have been taken extremely seriously. "Masked guy repeatedly visits at night to write threatening messages on car of single woman living alone" is... about as explicit as you can get.
  - MonkeyMalarky 4y ago
    Except they did: >Now it was time to call 999. My sister had already had a couple of police visits about the previous incidents, so they knew there was a problem linked to her flat and came round pretty quickly.
    - Major_Grooves 4y ago
      Thank you.
  - jemfinch 4y ago
    Please stop repeating this falsehood. "My sister had already had a couple of police visits about the previous incidents."
    - Major_Grooves 4y ago
      Exactly.
  - genocidicbunny 4y ago
    I know this story is in the UK, but at least in the US you absolutely should assume they will not help, and depending on the circumstances will make the situation even worse. They have no duty to do anything to help, and no consequences if they don't. > "Masked guy repeatedly visits at night to write threatening messages on car of single woman living alone" is... about as explicit as you can get. Or alternatively its an invitation for a police officer or a department to suddenly need to do a lot of work that they could just...not do. No skin off their back if someone is being harassed or stalked, and if something worse happens, they can investigate then. Why spend the resources now after all?
- crindy 4y ago
  That doesn't seem to be the case in this story
  - ceejayoz 4y ago
    > my sister updated the police on our significant evidence haul and the police agreed that they had enough to at least arrest him and question him There’s no evidence the cops would have acted on just a complaint. Anecdotally, I know several people who’ve struggled to get the cops to take stalking seriously.
- dsfyu404ed 4y ago
  Why would they? They get bombarded with people them to f-over or harass someone they got beef with all the time. And most of those sob stories they get told have two sides to them. The false positive ratio is too high to be worth taking these complaints seriously let alone at face value.
  - PuppyTailWags 4y ago
    Do you have sources about false positive ratios of stalking, vandalism, etc? My understanding is that sexually-oriented crimes actually have a very low rate of false accusations, but I didn't look into it deeply and I only heard of it like 5+ years ago so maybe something's changed? Let me know if you have updated data.
- steveBK123 4y ago
  Its an information/risk asymmetry problem too right. For an individual its better to be safe than sorry on something like a stalking incident. For the cops dealing with a plethora of complaints, on average, most of these resolve to nothing.. Further, these complaints often come with unspecific information thus requiring some amount of surveillance, some of which is easier for the victim to do (put cameras up your own property) than they are able to do legally, especially without a warrant. Further, with some information in-hand from surveillance, the victim also has access to all their own social media/etc accounts that you can try and make connections between whatever information you collect. Most people are probably not going to be be OK with "sure we can help you, but we need to put cameras on your property, car and permission to login to all your social media accounts / email / texts, is that ok?" Obviously this is not ideal, but the vast majority of cops are not detectives. They aren't sending out their best to every seemingly minor call. I had a friend involved in a domestic incident and when the cops showed up, because she had fought back enough, they both showed evidence of a struggle, and the guy lied about incident. So the cops spent less than an hour on site, shrugged their shoulders and dragged them both off to lockup to go sort it out with a judge in the morning. One alternative is maybe she didn't fight back and the cops would have seen only marks on her neck and took only him away, maybe. The other alternative is, she didn't fight back, and he choked her to death. It's often better to fight back than to let yourself get killed while waiting for law enforcement, but there's also a risk that whatever contact with law enforcement you make will not go precisely your way, immediately, without side effects.
zxexz 4y ago
Citizens Arrests are very dangerous and pretty much never worth the risk. Even ignoring the many physical dangers of such an act, if the person “arrested” doesn’t get convicted (also pretty sure it has to be a felony conviction, at least here in MA, though IANAL), it opens you up to a false arrest, or possibly a false imprisonment, charge.
- mindslight 4y ago
  If only the police we pay for were held to the same standards as other citizens.
  - zxexz 4y ago
    Not sure why you're being downvoted. The seems pretty reasonable to me.
- gggggg5 4y ago
  >Even ignoring the many physical dangers of such an act, if the person “arrested” doesn’t get convicted (also pretty sure it has to be a felony conviction, at least here in MA, though IANAL), it opens you up to a false arrest, or possibly a false imprisonment, charge. In England and Wales you merely need a reasonable belief, the person not being convicted does not automatically open you up to trouble any more than it would open up a police officer to trouble. https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/60/section/24A https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/60/section/24A
bigpeach 4y ago
I thought this too. But you can feel incredibly powerless if all you do is “let the police handle it.” Even in this instance, nothing would have come of it had they not traced the guy. Prosecution of crime happens after a crime is committed. Cops can’t do much if you’re worried someone will harm you or a loved one. Even if stalking is illegal, cops won’t / can’t feasibly spend the resources investigating and punishing stalkers. Even prosecuting sexual assault (ie. after a serious crime has been committed) is extremely difficult. What actually effective steps can you take if someone is harassing a female in your life? Speaking from personal experience, the lip service of “cops are there to protect you” is inadequate. It didn’t provide any safety, and I can’t see how, structurally, it even could.
- ketzo 4y ago
  Yeah, but like... they didn't even "let the police handle it." They just went straight to "late-night stakeout." > Cops can’t do much if you’re worried someone will harm you or a loved one. You're right, and that would be a scary situation... if they didn't have more than enough evidence for the police to get involved. Repeated, late-night visits to leave threatening messages would be plenty for a restraining order in the U.S., or at the very least to spur further police investigation. > What actually effective steps can you take if someone is harassing a female in your life? In this case, her brothers could have taken turns driving home from work with her, walking her to her car, sleeping over at her place, while they waited for police to proceed with investigation. They could have helped her get connected with a self-defense course, or bought her mace (depending on legality). Stalkers/harassers can make people feel extremely helpless, and yes, there are a lot of really horrible situations where cops are useless despite an obvious threat. This... is not one of those situations.
  - kanyethegreat 4y ago
    > Repeated, late-night visits to leave threatening messages would be plenty for a restraining order in the U.S., or at the very least to spur further police investigation. Restraining order against whom exactly? The masked man? Also, what tactical protection do you think a restraining order provides against someone with actual intent to harm? > In this case, her brothers could have taken turns driving home from work with her, walking her to her car, sleeping over at her place, while they waited for police to proceed with investigation. They could have helped her get connected with a self-defense course, or bought her mace (depending on legality). All good suggestions. Unfortunately, everything other than self-defense is a temporary (and likely not sustainable) countermeasure. Regarding the self-defense strategy, barring effective weapon use, the odds aren't in the target's favor given 1/ the size discrepancy (they even talk about how burly the stalker was) and 2/ the fact that the assailant has the element of surprise. It's sad that the only viable option seems to be "carry a weapon, train in martial arts, wait for an incident and hope you're able to defend against it." This is not preventative. It's reactionary. > This... is not one of those situations. I disagree.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
It is hilarious that you think the police would give a shit.
- ketzo 4y ago
  We have no way of knowing if they would have given a shit, because they literally didn't even try before planning a late-night stakeout. Yeah, cops can be really shitty about domestic violence and harassment. But, uh, as opening statements go, it's hard to do much stronger than: "Hello officer! I have video evidence of masked guy repeatedly visiting at night to write threatening messages on the car of a woman living alone"
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
    You call the police a few times in your life and learn they are useless. Then you either experience or hear about times when calling them ended worse for the caller than if they'd just never bothered at all. Maybe this isn't true for where you live, your income bracket, or your skin tone, but it is definitely true for a lot of people.
  - gghffguhvc 4y ago
    From the article: "Now it was time to call 999. My sister had already had a couple of police visits about the previous incidents, so they knew there was a problem linked to her flat and came round pretty quickly."
andrewflnr 4y ago
Possibly different in Scotland? They mention at least making an effort to figure out the laws that apply to them.
entwife 4y ago
Hi, Where I live the police won't get seriously involved unless someone is injured or dead. I prefer not to wait that long.
- sammalloy 4y ago
  I’m not sure if this is a regional thing; police are like this just about everywhere. In my region, most of the people in my community have all stopped calling the emergency services line to report crimes in progress because the dispatch yells and screams and berates the callers. There’s a Facebook group for my local town with dozens of people who say they don’t call anymore because of this. At some point, the police transitioned from preventing and fighting crime to arguing in court that they don’t have the duty to protect. Not sure how it happened or why, but it’s making things worse. Many people no longer see the police as part of the local community but as an organized gang that terrorizes people for small infractions while ignoring major crimes in progress. No amount of patriotism, flag waving, or bumper stickers can change this perception.
  - midoridensha 4y ago
    Where is this awful place? It sounds like it's in the US; can you say which state at least?
    - mgarfias 4y ago
      No police force in the US has a duty to protect. See: https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=9108468254125174344&q=warren-v-district-of-columbia&hl=en&as_sdt=2006 https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=910846825412517...
  - ARandomerDude 4y ago
    > Not sure how it happened or why Obviously police are a diverse group, but certainly no white male police officer in his right mind would risk a violent encounter with a minority suspect in today’s political environment. If I were a cop, I’d get another job ASAP and focus on paperwork until I found one.
dsfyu404ed 4y ago
>I get it, I'm an older brother, I would wanna go ballistic too. But the fact that these guys skipped over "notify the police" and went straight to "seek out in-person confrontation" is insane! Unless you have independently evidence (that can be independently verified) of a better than misdemeanor crime police almost certainly aren't gonna do squat other than put you on a list of "people with motive" to check up on when the dude you're after gets shwacked by someone else he's wronged.
isk517 4y ago
While I do agree that what they did is risky, the article does mention that the police had already been notified after previous incidents. Of course if they failed to alert the police after they had the video evidence of the same guy vandalizing the car night after night then I will fully agree complete idiots, otherwise I can sympathize with their desire to go above and beyond to help their sister.
- Major_Grooves 4y ago
  "Complete idiots"might be a slight exaggeration, but hey no offence taken. iirc they knew we had video, but the video of the car vandalism was never going to be enough to do anything. They had not seen that specific video. In the end it was only a small part of the evidence package.
  - isk517 4y ago
    Thanks for the response. Just to clarify, the 'complete idiots' comment was only applicable in the event you had completely ignored the police while gathering the evidence. Since you seemed to have been in contact with them and realized they were not going to act I honestly applaud you and brother for taking steps to ensure your sister doesn't end up as a 'statistic' as they say.
korroziya 4y ago
[flagged]
thenayr 4y ago
[dead]
TheRealPomax 4y ago
Note: Scotland. Different rules.
gghffguhvc 4y ago
I agree. However it is worth noting that the sister had been to the police quite a bit by the sounds of it. "Now it was time to call 999. My sister had already had a couple of police visits about the previous incidents, so they knew there was a problem linked to her flat and came round pretty quickly."
femto 4y ago
"Collect evidence and get the authorities involved!" is excellent advice. Though if other options were exhausted, I'd be more prepared to "give it a go" in the UK than in the US. Stricter gun laws mean you're unlikely to be confronted with a firearm, and if outnumbered and tempers are kept at bay the person would be more likely to run or surrender. Think I would have had more than two people on my side.
- vorpalhex 4y ago
  So you confront someone you think is a criminal with a group of men and get into a brawl. How much time are you willing to spend in jail? Even if the gent is a stalker and you are right - you still instigated a brawl! You still assaulted (or more) someone. If your thought process is "ah but he won't have a gun! My lads and me will really have an easy time now!" that may be a sign you are doing something unwise. And what if he does have a knife or improvised weapon? Are you looking forward to explaining to your buds wife why he's room temp in the morgue over a stalker?
  - femto 4y ago
    > you still instigated a brawl! Why go in with an assumption that violence is going to occur? That's a recipe for trouble. You would have to pick your friends carefully, so none of them loose their cool. If there is going to be violence or any contact, let the stalker initiate it. I'm not arguing that it would be risk free or a lark. It's a case of accepting the risks and being happy that the likely outcome would justify the risks.
    - vorpalhex 4y ago
      If you don't believe violence is going to occur, why not go alone?
      - barry-cotter 4y ago
        The point of going with a group of friends is to make it clear to the person you are implicitly threatening that if there is a fight they will lose. The more unbalanced the forces on each side the less likely the weaker side is to initiate violence.
n0tth3dro1ds 4y ago
Cowardice: the post. Cops won’t care or do anything near me. Dangerous confrontation > dead/raped sister any day of the week.
- shbooms 4y ago
  Right but the point is you at least need to notfiy them first and give them the chance to do something. If you're unsatified with what they've done, or lack thereof, then sure.
  - JimtheCoder 4y ago
    "Hello, 911? I'd like to report a stalker. If you don't handle it in 30 minutes or less, I will attack. I woke up today and chose violence..."
    - deleted 4y ago
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    - deleted 4y ago
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    - type0 4y ago
      > or less, I will attack. Copy written lyrics so they can't be stolen If they are, Snap! Don't need the police To try to save them, your voice will cease So please, stay off my back Or I will attack, and you don't want that
  - jemfinch 4y ago
    The point isn't a point at all, since their sister had already notified the police and given them a chance to do something. Read the article: "My sister had already had a couple of police visits about the previous incidents."
- throwaway292939 4y ago
  Who said those are the only two choices available? False dichotomy
pnw 4y ago
The post indicates they had previously notified the police. "My sister had already had a couple of police visits about the previous incidents, so they knew there was a problem linked to her flat and came round pretty quickly."
MisterTea 4y ago
Trying to confront chase the perp was indeed a dumb idea. Though if you read the article they appear to have made multiple reports in the past. Thing is with police reports like this is by the time they arrive they only "see" vandalism which is all they can put in their report. Anything else you tell them is taken with a grain of salt, they arent psychics. In order for them to become actively involved they need to see the crime in progress or be presented with solid evidence. In the latter case you need to hire a private detective or DiY which is what they chose to do here.
heavyset_go 4y ago
Also from a legal standpoint, if you end up in court trying to get a restraining order or by pressing charges, it's going to look awful if you did something like this. Unfortunately, you want to look like a perfect victim if you're going before a judge over something like this. Same goes if you want law enforcement to take you seriously. It's hard enough to get them to take stalking victims seriously as it is. But I also get it. The chances of the law doing anything about the stalker are slim to none even if you are a perfect victim.
csours 4y ago
Is there a prospective randomized controlled trial on which intervention is safest and most effective? No? Hmmm.
sannee 4y ago
I do not think the article implied that this was safe in any way. Sometimes doing something unsafe is the only way to accomplish a task.
valdiorn 4y ago
definitely get it on record with the police, but you must realise that the police will do fuck-all about it until it escalates into something much more serious, and often, it's too late at that point. Taking matters into your own hands is often the only way of dealing with it -albeit there are safer ways of going about it.
barry-cotter 4y ago
This is only good advice in a society of law and order where crimes are prosecuted and punished appropriately. Whether that fits the UK is a matter for debate. For reasons people might believe that see the incredibly long thread linked below. There’s no Spanish reason to believe the police would have investigated and arrested a stalker just because there was copious evidence to prosecute. > Norwich man leaves his victim with permanent facial scarring after glassing him in a nightclub row over his feet being on a seat. Ordered to pay £175 compensation with a suspended sentence edp24.co.uk/news/23243869.… via @Norfolkforever https://twitter.com/edwest/status/1613814824013598720?s=46&t=O0XWb7iljJFTiFhWn_xCPQ https://twitter.com/edwest/status/1613814824013598720?s=46&t... > Disqualified driver kills a cyclist while doing 80 in a 30mph zone, leaves him to die while he escapes, Despite ten prior convictions for 20 offences, gets less than 5 years (so will serve 2 and a half) Also banned from driving - for 5 just years https://twitter.com/edwest/status/1616865052899909633?s=46&t=O0XWb7iljJFTiFhWn_xCPQ https://twitter.com/edwest/status/1616865052899909633?s=46&t... > Last year at least 58 people were murdered by criminals let out early on probation. Many of those had been let out early for extremely violent offences express.co.uk/news/uk/172127… (*55 killers, at least one killed multiple people) https://twitter.com/edwest/status/1614919057102209025?s=46&t=O0XWb7iljJFTiFhWn_xCPQ https://twitter.com/edwest/status/1614919057102209025?s=46&t...
DonHopkins 4y ago
Save your breath for telling the stalker: don't fucking do this!
wpietri 4y ago
Do you have experience getting the cops involved in something like this? Because from what I've read, it's at best hit or miss depending on jurisdiction and circumstance. That's not to say that a citizen's arrest is a good idea, mind you. Just that getting the authorities involved may not be effective.
dqpb 4y ago
The instinct to defend yourself and your loved ones is a heuristic policy trained over millions of years. Certainly there is a good reason for this. By the way, remember when less than a year ago 376 police officers stood around while a deranged gunman murdered 19 highschool students, serving no other purpose than to prevent anyone from entering the school and saving the students? Nobody cares about your safety as much as you and your family do.
justatdotin 4y ago
some of us do not like to deal with police.
colechristensen 4y ago
Eh, the police are pretty useless. Unless the situation is obvious, easy, and very serious, don’t expect much. Yea confronting a stalker isn’t safe, duh. I don’t know who would go into an endeavor like that expecting such. What you need to do is make sure that you aren’t inviting serious legal consequences on yourself with your plans (or that you know and accept the risks).
deleted 4y ago
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speg 4y ago
The police had been informed prior to the stakeout. A citizens arrest is a well-known thing, why the ??? This isn’t America, where everyone may be yielding a firearm.
- Major_Grooves 4y ago
  aye, exactly. I presume most of the people criticising our "citizen's arrest" idea are form the US, where I indeed would not have contemplated doing such a thing. In Scotland I do not really have the same fear. Not sure I would do the same thing in Glasgow or London, but still, we are not idiots, we were not going to take any crazy risks but we figured the risk to us was worth it to stop the risk to our sister. We weighed the risks up.
jemfinch 4y ago
It was buried, so you might have missed it: "My sister had already had a couple of police visits about the previous incidents." They didn't skip the police at all: the police simply weren't doing anything until they had more information.
scotty79 4y ago
I don't think anybody skipped "notify the police". He mentiones police was informed multiple times about incidents with a car. They just didn't bother to do anything until the guy was served to them on a silver platter. Even after police was given plates of the guy (seen on two consecutive days) they said, you must be wrong, car's from Yorkshire, as if the main feature of the cars wasn't that they can move from Yorkshire to wherever.
simonebrunozzi 4y ago
You might be right, but most of the time authorities don't do shit. I remember a situation where a friend (SF Bay Area) managed to identify the location of his stolen bike, police didn't care and didn't do anything. I agree that caution is necessary, but I wouldn't be expecting much from the police.
yosito 4y ago
This is highly context dependent. The police are not reliable in many (probably most) places in the world. In many places you're much better off with a direct confrontation.
Major_Grooves 4y ago
Hi, this is my article. I know it's a long read, but I presume you didn't read the whole article. We certainly didn't skip notifying the police. The whole point of the article is that we did the opposite - gathered enough evidence so that the police could do their job. The police were never going to do a stake out like we did. Citizen's arrest is not such a unusual thing to do. We would not have messed with him if he produced a knife. I note that when I published this article a week or two ago, much of the feedback (mostly from Americans I think) was that they would have skipped the police and just kicked the guy in! I would say we were quite sensible overall.
- petesmithy 4y ago
  Additional context for Americans: we basically don’t have guns in Britain. The most dangerous thing these guys did was nearly get run over by the stalker fleeing in his car.
SergeAx 4y ago
It is not safe indeed, but since when we (as in "humans") started doing only safe things?
BuckyBeaver 4y ago
That's pretty much what they did. It's not as if they got out and attacked the guy.
deleted 4y ago
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AtlasBarfed 4y ago
Well, it certainly helps there is an effective police force where they are. In the US, the police wouldn't have done much. Maybe issue a restraining order or three if she's lucky. Also helps that the danger of everyone carrying murder device firearms isn't as prevalent over there.
lofaszvanitt 4y ago
In certain countries the person is buried in a grave and problem solved. Nobody knows about it. What's wrong with that? Btw this whole shit looks staged.
fennecfoxy 4y ago
At least she got someone to defend her. If you're a dude who can't help yourself in the same way literally nobody gives a shit about you. Also, after reading the article: * They make a citizen's arrest with little evidence that the guy they observed the other night is the same dude as on video other than their word * The night they actually observed the guy, he didn't actually do anything wrong (even if putting on a mask is a pretty solid link) but it's still all on their word I feel like the stalker dude is a dangerous scumbag but these vigilantee a-holes are no better; as a short gay dude I've run in with too many of these dude bro white knights who may get things right now & then but can otherwise screw up. Like dudes that assault you in a club bc they think you're harassing some chick when in actuality you're just plain not interested.

by ketzo 4y ago

tantalor 4y ago

The part that jumped out was, > we get ready to make a “citizen’s arrest” That is so stupid. They are very lucky they didn't get the chance to try that.

Major_Grooves 4y ago
it's Scotland. Making a citizen's arrest is not so crazy.

ceejayoz 4y ago

The problem is the cops tend not to give a shit.

ketzo 4y ago
I understand that. But you cannot assume they won't help. These guys didn't even try contacting the police before hatching a late-night scheme. For what it's worth, in my (regrettably several) experiences with stalkers/harassers, this situation would have been taken extremely seriously. "Masked guy repeatedly visits at night to write threatening messages on car of single woman living alone" is... about as explicit as you can get.
- MonkeyMalarky 4y ago
  Except they did: >Now it was time to call 999. My sister had already had a couple of police visits about the previous incidents, so they knew there was a problem linked to her flat and came round pretty quickly.
  - Major_Grooves 4y ago
    Thank you.
- jemfinch 4y ago
  Please stop repeating this falsehood. "My sister had already had a couple of police visits about the previous incidents."
  - Major_Grooves 4y ago
    Exactly.
- genocidicbunny 4y ago
  I know this story is in the UK, but at least in the US you absolutely should assume they will not help, and depending on the circumstances will make the situation even worse. They have no duty to do anything to help, and no consequences if they don't. > "Masked guy repeatedly visits at night to write threatening messages on car of single woman living alone" is... about as explicit as you can get. Or alternatively its an invitation for a police officer or a department to suddenly need to do a lot of work that they could just...not do. No skin off their back if someone is being harassed or stalked, and if something worse happens, they can investigate then. Why spend the resources now after all?
crindy 4y ago
That doesn't seem to be the case in this story
- ceejayoz 4y ago
  > my sister updated the police on our significant evidence haul and the police agreed that they had enough to at least arrest him and question him There’s no evidence the cops would have acted on just a complaint. Anecdotally, I know several people who’ve struggled to get the cops to take stalking seriously.
dsfyu404ed 4y ago
Why would they? They get bombarded with people them to f-over or harass someone they got beef with all the time. And most of those sob stories they get told have two sides to them. The false positive ratio is too high to be worth taking these complaints seriously let alone at face value.
- PuppyTailWags 4y ago
  Do you have sources about false positive ratios of stalking, vandalism, etc? My understanding is that sexually-oriented crimes actually have a very low rate of false accusations, but I didn't look into it deeply and I only heard of it like 5+ years ago so maybe something's changed? Let me know if you have updated data.
steveBK123 4y ago
Its an information/risk asymmetry problem too right. For an individual its better to be safe than sorry on something like a stalking incident. For the cops dealing with a plethora of complaints, on average, most of these resolve to nothing.. Further, these complaints often come with unspecific information thus requiring some amount of surveillance, some of which is easier for the victim to do (put cameras up your own property) than they are able to do legally, especially without a warrant. Further, with some information in-hand from surveillance, the victim also has access to all their own social media/etc accounts that you can try and make connections between whatever information you collect. Most people are probably not going to be be OK with "sure we can help you, but we need to put cameras on your property, car and permission to login to all your social media accounts / email / texts, is that ok?" Obviously this is not ideal, but the vast majority of cops are not detectives. They aren't sending out their best to every seemingly minor call. I had a friend involved in a domestic incident and when the cops showed up, because she had fought back enough, they both showed evidence of a struggle, and the guy lied about incident. So the cops spent less than an hour on site, shrugged their shoulders and dragged them both off to lockup to go sort it out with a judge in the morning. One alternative is maybe she didn't fight back and the cops would have seen only marks on her neck and took only him away, maybe. The other alternative is, she didn't fight back, and he choked her to death. It's often better to fight back than to let yourself get killed while waiting for law enforcement, but there's also a risk that whatever contact with law enforcement you make will not go precisely your way, immediately, without side effects.

zxexz 4y ago

Citizens Arrests are very dangerous and pretty much never worth the risk. Even ignoring the many physical dangers of such an act, if the person “arrested” doesn’t get convicted (also pretty sure it has to be a felony conviction, at least here in MA, though IANAL), it opens you up to a false arrest, or possibly a false imprisonment, charge.

mindslight 4y ago
If only the police we pay for were held to the same standards as other citizens.
- zxexz 4y ago
  Not sure why you're being downvoted. The seems pretty reasonable to me.
gggggg5 4y ago
>Even ignoring the many physical dangers of such an act, if the person “arrested” doesn’t get convicted (also pretty sure it has to be a felony conviction, at least here in MA, though IANAL), it opens you up to a false arrest, or possibly a false imprisonment, charge. In England and Wales you merely need a reasonable belief, the person not being convicted does not automatically open you up to trouble any more than it would open up a police officer to trouble. https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/60/section/24A https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/60/section/24A

bigpeach 4y ago

I thought this too. But you can feel incredibly powerless if all you do is “let the police handle it.” Even in this instance, nothing would have come of it had they not traced the guy. Prosecution of crime happens after a crime is committed. Cops can’t do much if you’re worried someone will harm you or a loved one. Even if stalking is illegal, cops won’t / can’t feasibly spend the resources investigating and punishing stalkers. Even prosecuting sexual assault (ie. after a serious crime has been committed) is extremely difficult. What actually effective steps can you take if someone is harassing a female in your life? Speaking from personal experience, the lip service of “cops are there to protect you” is inadequate. It didn’t provide any safety, and I can’t see how, structurally, it even could.

ketzo 4y ago
Yeah, but like... they didn't even "let the police handle it." They just went straight to "late-night stakeout." > Cops can’t do much if you’re worried someone will harm you or a loved one. You're right, and that would be a scary situation... if they didn't have more than enough evidence for the police to get involved. Repeated, late-night visits to leave threatening messages would be plenty for a restraining order in the U.S., or at the very least to spur further police investigation. > What actually effective steps can you take if someone is harassing a female in your life? In this case, her brothers could have taken turns driving home from work with her, walking her to her car, sleeping over at her place, while they waited for police to proceed with investigation. They could have helped her get connected with a self-defense course, or bought her mace (depending on legality). Stalkers/harassers can make people feel extremely helpless, and yes, there are a lot of really horrible situations where cops are useless despite an obvious threat. This... is not one of those situations.
- kanyethegreat 4y ago
  > Repeated, late-night visits to leave threatening messages would be plenty for a restraining order in the U.S., or at the very least to spur further police investigation. Restraining order against whom exactly? The masked man? Also, what tactical protection do you think a restraining order provides against someone with actual intent to harm? > In this case, her brothers could have taken turns driving home from work with her, walking her to her car, sleeping over at her place, while they waited for police to proceed with investigation. They could have helped her get connected with a self-defense course, or bought her mace (depending on legality). All good suggestions. Unfortunately, everything other than self-defense is a temporary (and likely not sustainable) countermeasure. Regarding the self-defense strategy, barring effective weapon use, the odds aren't in the target's favor given 1/ the size discrepancy (they even talk about how burly the stalker was) and 2/ the fact that the assailant has the element of surprise. It's sad that the only viable option seems to be "carry a weapon, train in martial arts, wait for an incident and hope you're able to defend against it." This is not preventative. It's reactionary. > This... is not one of those situations. I disagree.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago

It is hilarious that you think the police would give a shit.

ketzo 4y ago
We have no way of knowing if they would have given a shit, because they literally didn't even try before planning a late-night stakeout. Yeah, cops can be really shitty about domestic violence and harassment. But, uh, as opening statements go, it's hard to do much stronger than: "Hello officer! I have video evidence of masked guy repeatedly visiting at night to write threatening messages on the car of a woman living alone"
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
  You call the police a few times in your life and learn they are useless. Then you either experience or hear about times when calling them ended worse for the caller than if they'd just never bothered at all. Maybe this isn't true for where you live, your income bracket, or your skin tone, but it is definitely true for a lot of people.
- gghffguhvc 4y ago
  From the article: "Now it was time to call 999. My sister had already had a couple of police visits about the previous incidents, so they knew there was a problem linked to her flat and came round pretty quickly."

andrewflnr 4y ago

Possibly different in Scotland? They mention at least making an effort to figure out the laws that apply to them.

entwife 4y ago

Hi, Where I live the police won't get seriously involved unless someone is injured or dead. I prefer not to wait that long.

sammalloy 4y ago
I’m not sure if this is a regional thing; police are like this just about everywhere. In my region, most of the people in my community have all stopped calling the emergency services line to report crimes in progress because the dispatch yells and screams and berates the callers. There’s a Facebook group for my local town with dozens of people who say they don’t call anymore because of this. At some point, the police transitioned from preventing and fighting crime to arguing in court that they don’t have the duty to protect. Not sure how it happened or why, but it’s making things worse. Many people no longer see the police as part of the local community but as an organized gang that terrorizes people for small infractions while ignoring major crimes in progress. No amount of patriotism, flag waving, or bumper stickers can change this perception.
- midoridensha 4y ago
  Where is this awful place? It sounds like it's in the US; can you say which state at least?
  - mgarfias 4y ago
    No police force in the US has a duty to protect. See: https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=9108468254125174344&q=warren-v-district-of-columbia&hl=en&as_sdt=2006 https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=910846825412517...
- ARandomerDude 4y ago
  > Not sure how it happened or why Obviously police are a diverse group, but certainly no white male police officer in his right mind would risk a violent encounter with a minority suspect in today’s political environment. If I were a cop, I’d get another job ASAP and focus on paperwork until I found one.

dsfyu404ed 4y ago

>I get it, I'm an older brother, I would wanna go ballistic too. But the fact that these guys skipped over "notify the police" and went straight to "seek out in-person confrontation" is insane! Unless you have independently evidence (that can be independently verified) of a better than misdemeanor crime police almost certainly aren't gonna do squat other than put you on a list of "people with motive" to check up on when the dude you're after gets shwacked by someone else he's wronged.

isk517 4y ago

While I do agree that what they did is risky, the article does mention that the police had already been notified after previous incidents. Of course if they failed to alert the police after they had the video evidence of the same guy vandalizing the car night after night then I will fully agree complete idiots, otherwise I can sympathize with their desire to go above and beyond to help their sister.

Major_Grooves 4y ago
"Complete idiots"might be a slight exaggeration, but hey no offence taken. iirc they knew we had video, but the video of the car vandalism was never going to be enough to do anything. They had not seen that specific video. In the end it was only a small part of the evidence package.
- isk517 4y ago
  Thanks for the response. Just to clarify, the 'complete idiots' comment was only applicable in the event you had completely ignored the police while gathering the evidence. Since you seemed to have been in contact with them and realized they were not going to act I honestly applaud you and brother for taking steps to ensure your sister doesn't end up as a 'statistic' as they say.

korroziya 4y ago

[flagged]

thenayr 4y ago

[dead]

TheRealPomax 4y ago

Note: Scotland. Different rules.

gghffguhvc 4y ago

I agree. However it is worth noting that the sister had been to the police quite a bit by the sounds of it. "Now it was time to call 999. My sister had already had a couple of police visits about the previous incidents, so they knew there was a problem linked to her flat and came round pretty quickly."

femto 4y ago

"Collect evidence and get the authorities involved!" is excellent advice. Though if other options were exhausted, I'd be more prepared to "give it a go" in the UK than in the US. Stricter gun laws mean you're unlikely to be confronted with a firearm, and if outnumbered and tempers are kept at bay the person would be more likely to run or surrender. Think I would have had more than two people on my side.

vorpalhex 4y ago
So you confront someone you think is a criminal with a group of men and get into a brawl. How much time are you willing to spend in jail? Even if the gent is a stalker and you are right - you still instigated a brawl! You still assaulted (or more) someone. If your thought process is "ah but he won't have a gun! My lads and me will really have an easy time now!" that may be a sign you are doing something unwise. And what if he does have a knife or improvised weapon? Are you looking forward to explaining to your buds wife why he's room temp in the morgue over a stalker?
- femto 4y ago
  > you still instigated a brawl! Why go in with an assumption that violence is going to occur? That's a recipe for trouble. You would have to pick your friends carefully, so none of them loose their cool. If there is going to be violence or any contact, let the stalker initiate it. I'm not arguing that it would be risk free or a lark. It's a case of accepting the risks and being happy that the likely outcome would justify the risks.
  - vorpalhex 4y ago
    If you don't believe violence is going to occur, why not go alone?
    - barry-cotter 4y ago
      The point of going with a group of friends is to make it clear to the person you are implicitly threatening that if there is a fight they will lose. The more unbalanced the forces on each side the less likely the weaker side is to initiate violence.

n0tth3dro1ds 4y ago

Cowardice: the post. Cops won’t care or do anything near me. Dangerous confrontation > dead/raped sister any day of the week.

shbooms 4y ago
Right but the point is you at least need to notfiy them first and give them the chance to do something. If you're unsatified with what they've done, or lack thereof, then sure.
- JimtheCoder 4y ago
  "Hello, 911? I'd like to report a stalker. If you don't handle it in 30 minutes or less, I will attack. I woke up today and chose violence..."
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  - type0 4y ago
    > or less, I will attack. Copy written lyrics so they can't be stolen If they are, Snap! Don't need the police To try to save them, your voice will cease So please, stay off my back Or I will attack, and you don't want that
- jemfinch 4y ago
  The point isn't a point at all, since their sister had already notified the police and given them a chance to do something. Read the article: "My sister had already had a couple of police visits about the previous incidents."
throwaway292939 4y ago
Who said those are the only two choices available? False dichotomy

pnw 4y ago

The post indicates they had previously notified the police. "My sister had already had a couple of police visits about the previous incidents, so they knew there was a problem linked to her flat and came round pretty quickly."

MisterTea 4y ago

Trying to confront chase the perp was indeed a dumb idea. Though if you read the article they appear to have made multiple reports in the past. Thing is with police reports like this is by the time they arrive they only "see" vandalism which is all they can put in their report. Anything else you tell them is taken with a grain of salt, they arent psychics. In order for them to become actively involved they need to see the crime in progress or be presented with solid evidence. In the latter case you need to hire a private detective or DiY which is what they chose to do here.

heavyset_go 4y ago

Also from a legal standpoint, if you end up in court trying to get a restraining order or by pressing charges, it's going to look awful if you did something like this. Unfortunately, you want to look like a perfect victim if you're going before a judge over something like this. Same goes if you want law enforcement to take you seriously. It's hard enough to get them to take stalking victims seriously as it is. But I also get it. The chances of the law doing anything about the stalker are slim to none even if you are a perfect victim.

csours 4y ago

Is there a prospective randomized controlled trial on which intervention is safest and most effective? No? Hmmm.

sannee 4y ago

I do not think the article implied that this was safe in any way. Sometimes doing something unsafe is the only way to accomplish a task.

valdiorn 4y ago

definitely get it on record with the police, but you must realise that the police will do fuck-all about it until it escalates into something much more serious, and often, it's too late at that point. Taking matters into your own hands is often the only way of dealing with it -albeit there are safer ways of going about it.

barry-cotter 4y ago

This is only good advice in a society of law and order where crimes are prosecuted and punished appropriately. Whether that fits the UK is a matter for debate. For reasons people might believe that see the incredibly long thread linked below. There’s no Spanish reason to believe the police would have investigated and arrested a stalker just because there was copious evidence to prosecute. > Norwich man leaves his victim with permanent facial scarring after glassing him in a nightclub row over his feet being on a seat. Ordered to pay £175 compensation with a suspended sentence edp24.co.uk/news/23243869.… via @Norfolkforever https://twitter.com/edwest/status/1613814824013598720?s=46&t=O0XWb7iljJFTiFhWn_xCPQ https://twitter.com/edwest/status/1613814824013598720?s=46&t... > Disqualified driver kills a cyclist while doing 80 in a 30mph zone, leaves him to die while he escapes, Despite ten prior convictions for 20 offences, gets less than 5 years (so will serve 2 and a half) Also banned from driving - for 5 just years https://twitter.com/edwest/status/1616865052899909633?s=46&t=O0XWb7iljJFTiFhWn_xCPQ https://twitter.com/edwest/status/1616865052899909633?s=46&t... > Last year at least 58 people were murdered by criminals let out early on probation. Many of those had been let out early for extremely violent offences express.co.uk/news/uk/172127… (*55 killers, at least one killed multiple people) https://twitter.com/edwest/status/1614919057102209025?s=46&t=O0XWb7iljJFTiFhWn_xCPQ https://twitter.com/edwest/status/1614919057102209025?s=46&t...

DonHopkins 4y ago

Save your breath for telling the stalker: don't fucking do this!

wpietri 4y ago

Do you have experience getting the cops involved in something like this? Because from what I've read, it's at best hit or miss depending on jurisdiction and circumstance. That's not to say that a citizen's arrest is a good idea, mind you. Just that getting the authorities involved may not be effective.

dqpb 4y ago

The instinct to defend yourself and your loved ones is a heuristic policy trained over millions of years. Certainly there is a good reason for this. By the way, remember when less than a year ago 376 police officers stood around while a deranged gunman murdered 19 highschool students, serving no other purpose than to prevent anyone from entering the school and saving the students? Nobody cares about your safety as much as you and your family do.

justatdotin 4y ago

some of us do not like to deal with police.

colechristensen 4y ago

Eh, the police are pretty useless. Unless the situation is obvious, easy, and very serious, don’t expect much. Yea confronting a stalker isn’t safe, duh. I don’t know who would go into an endeavor like that expecting such. What you need to do is make sure that you aren’t inviting serious legal consequences on yourself with your plans (or that you know and accept the risks).

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speg 4y ago

The police had been informed prior to the stakeout. A citizens arrest is a well-known thing, why the ??? This isn’t America, where everyone may be yielding a firearm.

Major_Grooves 4y ago
aye, exactly. I presume most of the people criticising our "citizen's arrest" idea are form the US, where I indeed would not have contemplated doing such a thing. In Scotland I do not really have the same fear. Not sure I would do the same thing in Glasgow or London, but still, we are not idiots, we were not going to take any crazy risks but we figured the risk to us was worth it to stop the risk to our sister. We weighed the risks up.

jemfinch 4y ago

It was buried, so you might have missed it: "My sister had already had a couple of police visits about the previous incidents." They didn't skip the police at all: the police simply weren't doing anything until they had more information.

scotty79 4y ago

I don't think anybody skipped "notify the police". He mentiones police was informed multiple times about incidents with a car. They just didn't bother to do anything until the guy was served to them on a silver platter. Even after police was given plates of the guy (seen on two consecutive days) they said, you must be wrong, car's from Yorkshire, as if the main feature of the cars wasn't that they can move from Yorkshire to wherever.

simonebrunozzi 4y ago

You might be right, but most of the time authorities don't do shit. I remember a situation where a friend (SF Bay Area) managed to identify the location of his stolen bike, police didn't care and didn't do anything. I agree that caution is necessary, but I wouldn't be expecting much from the police.

yosito 4y ago

This is highly context dependent. The police are not reliable in many (probably most) places in the world. In many places you're much better off with a direct confrontation.

Major_Grooves 4y ago

Hi, this is my article. I know it's a long read, but I presume you didn't read the whole article. We certainly didn't skip notifying the police. The whole point of the article is that we did the opposite - gathered enough evidence so that the police could do their job. The police were never going to do a stake out like we did. Citizen's arrest is not such a unusual thing to do. We would not have messed with him if he produced a knife. I note that when I published this article a week or two ago, much of the feedback (mostly from Americans I think) was that they would have skipped the police and just kicked the guy in! I would say we were quite sensible overall.

petesmithy 4y ago
Additional context for Americans: we basically don’t have guns in Britain. The most dangerous thing these guys did was nearly get run over by the stalker fleeing in his car.

SergeAx 4y ago

It is not safe indeed, but since when we (as in "humans") started doing only safe things?

BuckyBeaver 4y ago

That's pretty much what they did. It's not as if they got out and attacked the guy.

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AtlasBarfed 4y ago

Well, it certainly helps there is an effective police force where they are. In the US, the police wouldn't have done much. Maybe issue a restraining order or three if she's lucky. Also helps that the danger of everyone carrying murder device firearms isn't as prevalent over there.

lofaszvanitt 4y ago

In certain countries the person is buried in a grave and problem solved. Nobody knows about it. What's wrong with that? Btw this whole shit looks staged.

fennecfoxy 4y ago

At least she got someone to defend her. If you're a dude who can't help yourself in the same way literally nobody gives a shit about you. Also, after reading the article: * They make a citizen's arrest with little evidence that the guy they observed the other night is the same dude as on video other than their word * The night they actually observed the guy, he didn't actually do anything wrong (even if putting on a mask is a pretty solid link) but it's still all on their word I feel like the stalker dude is a dangerous scumbag but these vigilantee a-holes are no better; as a short gay dude I've run in with too many of these dude bro white knights who may get things right now & then but can otherwise screw up. Like dudes that assault you in a club bc they think you're harassing some chick when in actuality you're just plain not interested.