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I was also curious about the topic. I think this book review by Nelson Goering of Robert Mailhammer & Theo Vennemann's book "The Carthaginian North: Semitic In
by eesmith 4y ago
I was also curious about the topic.
I think this book review by Nelson Goering of Robert Mailhammer & Theo Vennemann's book "The Carthaginian North: Semitic Influence on Early Germanic: A Linguistic and Cultural Study" at https://hcommons.org/deposits/download/hc:40752/CONTENT/goering-2021-review-of-mailhammer-and-vennemann.pdf/ https://hcommons.org/deposits/download/hc:40752/CONTENT/goer... and https://doi.org/10.1075/jhl.20028.goe https://doi.org/10.1075/jhl.20028.goe does a good job of summarizing the argument and the review author's issues with it.
> The thesis presented in this book – that there was a substantial linguistic impact on what would become Proto-Germanic from the Punic spoken by Carthaginians who allegedly established outposts in northern Europe – has been argued by one of the authors in various articles for many years (see the collected articles in Vennemann 2003, 2013), and is already known as ‘controversial’. ... This book can be taken as arguing the best possible case for Punic influence on Germanic ...
> This, then, is the sum of the strictly linguistic evidence marshalled by MV for the alleged Punic contact and linguistic influence on Germanic. They supplement it with an appeal to writing systems, arguing that runes are best derived directly from the Punic alphabet. They make a number of points, but a large core of their argument turns on the supposed derivation of the first four runes (for f, u, þ, and a), in order, shape, and sound, from the Punic alphabet. .
> The result of this, it should by now be clear, is that I must conclude that the central thesis of the book – that there was linguistic influence from Punic on pre-Germanic – is not supported by the evidence marshalled here. More than that, I would say that this Punic hypothesis may now be confidently rejected as very probably untrue. If such influence were real, then the combined labours of two talented linguists, one working on the problem for very many years, and with ample (if often critical) feedback to build on, would have uncovered convincing traces by now. That they have not strongly suggests that such do not exist. If this is the best argument that can be made for the Punic hypothesis, then the hypothesis would appear to be incorrect.
- moloch-hai 4y agoEither new evidence changes the picture, or it doesn't. Objecting to checking is not science.
- _a_a_a_ 4y agoWhat new evidence. The guy's post said it was checked by linguists and found inadequate to support your claim. Not that your claim is wrong, just unsupportable by that checking.
- moloch-hai 4y agoAre you aware of the article your post is attached to?
- _a_a_a_ 4y agoYes. Iust can't see the word 'semitic' or 'carthage' there, am I missing something?
- moloch-hai 4y agoIt is new evidence. Previous conclusions formed in its absence are obsolete. The new conclusion might be the same, or not, but not without checking first.
- _a_a_a_ 4y agoWhat explicitly is the link. What is the new evidence. Please be specific.
- moloch-hai 4y agoIt is right there at the top of the window you are looking at right now. They call it TFA around here.
- eesmith 4y agoI wanted to know what you were talking about in the first place. Not whether this runestone find affects our understanding of history. What does "the picture" mean? For just about every topic there are multiple pictures, depending on one's interest. I think it's good science for geospatial information scientists to object to requests to check for a flat earth, and for medical scientists to object to using humoral theory in medical diagnostics, so I think your second sentence, when interpreted a blanket statement, is wrong. Surely Mailhammer, or Vennemann, or you could perform and publish your own checks, so I also don't see how your comment is relevant - who is stopping them from checking?