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> Suppose that Alice wants to send Bob an asset. This could be some quantity of cryptocurrency (eg. 1 ETH, 500 RAI), or it could be an NFT. When Bob receives th

> Suppose that Alice wants to send Bob an asset. This could be some quantity of cryptocurrency (eg. 1 ETH, 500 RAI), or it could be an NFT. When Bob receives the asset, he does not want the entire world to know that it was he who got it. Except we live in a society. Whose cohesion requires us to be able to verify that: * Bob did not receive an asset that Alice previously stole from Carol * If Bob received an asset as income, then he needs to pay a portion of it in taxes to continue receiving water, sanitation, emergency services, etc. * The asset Bob received isn't evidence of a crime (such as terrorism or child pornography), that while Bob may not have committed, his desire to receive it generated the demand that incentivized the commission of the crime. Privacy is important. Don't get me wrong, I am certainly aware the same arguments can be made to weaken end to end encryption in communication, and things like terrorism & CP are frequently used as scare tactics to remove civil liberties and infringe on people's privacy. But it's also important to acknowledge that when building a decentralized financial system as folks are keen to do with Etherium, you are replacing something that is one of the core building blocks of our society.

f38zf5vdt 4y ago
When I order a cheeseburger and pay with cash, the clerk is always cautious to ensure that the cash I provide wasn't previously stolen. After enjoying my meal, I always make sure to thoroughly investigate the diner after to ensure that they pay their fair share of taxes.
- burnished 4y ago
  Granted. What about when you make a transaction over 10k?
  - f38zf5vdt 4y ago
    $10k today, or in 40 years when that's how much I need to pay for a cheeseburger?
    - burnished 4y ago
      Today, for KYC requirements.
    - javanissen 4y ago
      You expect 18.85% annualized inflation for the next 40 years?
  - j0hnyl 4y ago
    You're right. When I meet a guy off craigslist that wants to sell me his car, he needs proof that I didn't steal the $12k I'm handing him in an envelope, and then I keep tabs on him to make sure he doesn't do anything illegal with the money.
    - burnished 4y ago
      No, but your bank has reporting requirements when you want to deposit that money.
      - wesapien 4y ago
        You're making assumptions about what anyone receiving money should do. No no no.
    - phs318u 4y ago
      I think you've got that arse about. Don't you want to know that the car you just bought wasn't stolen?
      - j0hnyl 4y ago
        That's a function of the car, not the payment mechanism. I look up the VIN and review the title before I buy the car...
andrewxdiamond 4y ago
> Bob did not receive an asset that Alice previously stole from Carol Yes like how we have perfect tracking of physical assets today > If Bob received an asset as income, then he needs to pay a portion of it in taxes to continue receiving water, sanitation, emergency services, etc. Yes like how the IRS has perfect tracking of every dollar bill in the US > The asset Bob received isn't evidence of a crime (such as terrorism or child pornography), that while Bob may not have committed, his desire to receive it generated the demand that incentivized the commission of the crime. Yup. the only way to prevent crime is to violate the privacy of every individual on the planet. We should expose everything that everyone has ever bought to the public so the government can make sure we are behaving. > you are replacing something that is one of the core building blocks of our society. I agree. Our society is built on the long standing tradition of the English Monarchy, and we should avoid changing things that fundamental to how we live. —— Sarcasm aside, I’m trying to point out that everything you’re advocating for here is an expansion of government capabilities. Governments do not have complete information today, and we are better off because of it.
roenxi 4y ago
Technical privacy is fundamentally a difficult technology to integrate into the tax system and the systems of financial repression that are in vogue. But there are some fun dots to connect: - The absolute failure of things like the War on Drugs - Frequent problems with government enforcement of capital controls (eg, China) - Success of wealthy people in maintaining offshore assets to avoid taxation - It is expensive for government agents to confiscate crypto from individuals. Technically it is impossible without their cooperation - It is very expensive to prove that someone is dabbling in privacycoins So even if you are spot on with your concerns, how do you plan to stop me using privacy technology? Or anyone else for that matter? Ban general purpose computing? That'll hurt you a lot more than it helps.
upsidesinclude 4y ago
This isnt a good argument. Something in your brain makes you believe that you should know what other people are doing. It is almost funny to read as you point out the logical fallacy of your position and then promptly ignore it. Perhaps funny if so many people didnt also share your incessant belief that other people don't have a right to privacy

f38zf5vdt 4y ago

When I order a cheeseburger and pay with cash, the clerk is always cautious to ensure that the cash I provide wasn't previously stolen. After enjoying my meal, I always make sure to thoroughly investigate the diner after to ensure that they pay their fair share of taxes.

burnished 4y ago
Granted. What about when you make a transaction over 10k?
- f38zf5vdt 4y ago
  $10k today, or in 40 years when that's how much I need to pay for a cheeseburger?
  - burnished 4y ago
    Today, for KYC requirements.
  - javanissen 4y ago
    You expect 18.85% annualized inflation for the next 40 years?
- j0hnyl 4y ago
  You're right. When I meet a guy off craigslist that wants to sell me his car, he needs proof that I didn't steal the $12k I'm handing him in an envelope, and then I keep tabs on him to make sure he doesn't do anything illegal with the money.
  - burnished 4y ago
    No, but your bank has reporting requirements when you want to deposit that money.
    - wesapien 4y ago
      You're making assumptions about what anyone receiving money should do. No no no.
  - phs318u 4y ago
    I think you've got that arse about. Don't you want to know that the car you just bought wasn't stolen?
    - j0hnyl 4y ago
      That's a function of the car, not the payment mechanism. I look up the VIN and review the title before I buy the car...

andrewxdiamond 4y ago

> Bob did not receive an asset that Alice previously stole from Carol Yes like how we have perfect tracking of physical assets today > If Bob received an asset as income, then he needs to pay a portion of it in taxes to continue receiving water, sanitation, emergency services, etc. Yes like how the IRS has perfect tracking of every dollar bill in the US > The asset Bob received isn't evidence of a crime (such as terrorism or child pornography), that while Bob may not have committed, his desire to receive it generated the demand that incentivized the commission of the crime. Yup. the only way to prevent crime is to violate the privacy of every individual on the planet. We should expose everything that everyone has ever bought to the public so the government can make sure we are behaving. > you are replacing something that is one of the core building blocks of our society. I agree. Our society is built on the long standing tradition of the English Monarchy, and we should avoid changing things that fundamental to how we live. —— Sarcasm aside, I’m trying to point out that everything you’re advocating for here is an expansion of government capabilities. Governments do not have complete information today, and we are better off because of it.

roenxi 4y ago

Technical privacy is fundamentally a difficult technology to integrate into the tax system and the systems of financial repression that are in vogue. But there are some fun dots to connect: - The absolute failure of things like the War on Drugs - Frequent problems with government enforcement of capital controls (eg, China) - Success of wealthy people in maintaining offshore assets to avoid taxation - It is expensive for government agents to confiscate crypto from individuals. Technically it is impossible without their cooperation - It is very expensive to prove that someone is dabbling in privacycoins So even if you are spot on with your concerns, how do you plan to stop me using privacy technology? Or anyone else for that matter? Ban general purpose computing? That'll hurt you a lot more than it helps.

upsidesinclude 4y ago

This isnt a good argument. Something in your brain makes you believe that you should know what other people are doing. It is almost funny to read as you point out the logical fallacy of your position and then promptly ignore it. Perhaps funny if so many people didnt also share your incessant belief that other people don't have a right to privacy