6 ms·

"the antithesis of 007 is George Smiley and that's how espionage and operations are really like" Much more realistic of course, but reality is likely more triv

"the antithesis of 007 is George Smiley and that's how espionage and operations are really like" Much more realistic of course, but reality is likely more trivial. Like the case about Kim Philby, the famous spy le Carré wrote about in "Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy". The book is way more complex and the characters engage in way more sophisticated double plays and schemes, than in reality, where they make quite trivial and dumb misstakes all the time.

wglb 4y ago
>The book is way more complex and the characters engage in way more sophisticated double plays and schemes, than in reality, where they make quite trivial and dumb misstakes all the time. I doubt that. I suspect that his writing is quite close to reality. For supporting evidence see The Red Sparrow trilogy by Matthews. The first novel opens with a 14 hour walk across Moscow to be sure that there is nobody on his tail. Just to have a short meeting with his source. Or read "The Targeter" by Nada Bakos, an actual spy, who was targeting terrorists. The reality, in fact is more complex, long, and boring than any le Carré novel, let alone the (what I think of pulp) thrillers about James Bond.
- hutzlibu 4y ago
  Well, then just read the book by John le Carre and then compare it with the Wikipedia Article about John Philby. "The first novel opens with a 14 hour walk across Moscow to be sure that there is nobody on his tail. Just to have a short meeting with his source." But yes, that is realistic. What I said what is not quite realistic in the books, are the levels of schemes and their complexity in the books. In reality they are usually not that complex because reality is boring and humans act dumb too much, it is just not worth build up 5 layers of conspiracy, when one idiot messes up at the 2 layer (just read about Kim Philby). This is where Cornwell took artistic liberty to spice up things, which is allright and I enjoy the books, but my point is, there are not gods at work in the agencies.
  - wglb 4y ago
    Perhaps you are referring to the Wikipedia article about Kim Philby? I wouldn't expect such an article to show the fabric and detail of the life of anyone, let alone a double agent. The two works are not comparable.
    - hutzlibu 4y ago
      "Perhaps you are referring to the Wikipedia article about Kim Philby?" Yes, that's why I wrote it like that. The book by Carre has explicitely Kim Philby as historic model. Yet in the books, the ploys are way more complex and the traitor is catched, because of advanced reasoning and schemes by Smiley, with Karla as the mastermind opponent. In reality, it was just dumb misstakes, after dumb misstakes. (and I also read the autobiography of Kim Philby btw.) And the details are not important, when the big facts are what they are. But you are free to keep your opinion of course.
- euroderf 4y ago
  > a 14 hour walk across Moscow to be sure that there is nobody on his tail. Of course nowadays there's pervasive video surveillance combinable with facial recognition. I wonder what this does to the trad spy biz. In China, for example.
porknubbins 4y ago
One thing I like about Le Carre is that despite all the effort put into spying almost nothing of real geopolitical importance ever happens. At most someone steals some minor Russian plans to build tanks or something. Its like an international pissing match between the various personalities to see who can get one over on whom.

wglb 4y ago

>The book is way more complex and the characters engage in way more sophisticated double plays and schemes, than in reality, where they make quite trivial and dumb misstakes all the time. I doubt that. I suspect that his writing is quite close to reality. For supporting evidence see The Red Sparrow trilogy by Matthews. The first novel opens with a 14 hour walk across Moscow to be sure that there is nobody on his tail. Just to have a short meeting with his source. Or read "The Targeter" by Nada Bakos, an actual spy, who was targeting terrorists. The reality, in fact is more complex, long, and boring than any le Carré novel, let alone the (what I think of pulp) thrillers about James Bond.

hutzlibu 4y ago
Well, then just read the book by John le Carre and then compare it with the Wikipedia Article about John Philby. "The first novel opens with a 14 hour walk across Moscow to be sure that there is nobody on his tail. Just to have a short meeting with his source." But yes, that is realistic. What I said what is not quite realistic in the books, are the levels of schemes and their complexity in the books. In reality they are usually not that complex because reality is boring and humans act dumb too much, it is just not worth build up 5 layers of conspiracy, when one idiot messes up at the 2 layer (just read about Kim Philby). This is where Cornwell took artistic liberty to spice up things, which is allright and I enjoy the books, but my point is, there are not gods at work in the agencies.
- wglb 4y ago
  Perhaps you are referring to the Wikipedia article about Kim Philby? I wouldn't expect such an article to show the fabric and detail of the life of anyone, let alone a double agent. The two works are not comparable.
  - hutzlibu 4y ago
    "Perhaps you are referring to the Wikipedia article about Kim Philby?" Yes, that's why I wrote it like that. The book by Carre has explicitely Kim Philby as historic model. Yet in the books, the ploys are way more complex and the traitor is catched, because of advanced reasoning and schemes by Smiley, with Karla as the mastermind opponent. In reality, it was just dumb misstakes, after dumb misstakes. (and I also read the autobiography of Kim Philby btw.) And the details are not important, when the big facts are what they are. But you are free to keep your opinion of course.
euroderf 4y ago
> a 14 hour walk across Moscow to be sure that there is nobody on his tail. Of course nowadays there's pervasive video surveillance combinable with facial recognition. I wonder what this does to the trad spy biz. In China, for example.

porknubbins 4y ago

One thing I like about Le Carre is that despite all the effort put into spying almost nothing of real geopolitical importance ever happens. At most someone steals some minor Russian plans to build tanks or something. Its like an international pissing match between the various personalities to see who can get one over on whom.