2 ms·

I would suggest becoming actually educated before developing strong opinions. The drug is extremely useful and saves lives in a clinical setting; chances are i

I would suggest becoming actually educated before developing strong opinions. The drug is extremely useful and saves lives in a clinical setting; chances are it will save your life or someone you know and love. It's literally used _every hour_ around the clock in ERs. Nearly all problematic Fentanyl in the US is illegally imported and created by third parties overseas. It is not manufactured by those big bad US Pharma companies.

CuriouslyC 4y ago
Yup, people don't realize but whereas a brick of heroin is a lot, a brick of fentanyl can supply a decent sized city. Because small amounts are so valuable, it's super easy to smuggle, and for a long time the Chinese would produce and sell it at rock bottom prices (I'm guessing that was state sponsored as a finger to the west for opium and the opium wars, which they're still very sore about)
- nibbleshifter 4y ago
  > I'm guessing that was state sponsored as a finger to the west I've heard this only from people with no experience dealing with the Chinese chemical industry. I don't think people fully realise how hands off the state typically was in the last couple of decades - you could get Chinese contract labs or chemical suppliers to make and ship you almost anything, and they would even mislabel it to get it through customs. There were dozens of labs that were churning out batches of whatever the latest "research chemical" "not for human consumption" was, for the western consumer market. No state sponsor needed - the business was extremely lucrative for all involved, and the materials absolutely dirt cheap to produce. There was a solid 10 or so years where simply picking out a new analogue and having it manufactured to order was a de-facto licence to print money due to how long it took for a novel substance to be banned.
  - CuriouslyC 4y ago
    I've had dealings with Chinese chemical producers. You don't open a business or sell things to foreign countries in China without the CCP's knowledge and some small degree of consent. Considering the risks and the degree of monitoring I doubt Chinese chemical producers would try to pull a fast one on the party. The party also almost certainly provided capital for a lot of these businesses.
calibas 4y ago
Yes, most of the fentanyl that's abused comes from illegal sources. However, like cocaine, methamphetamine and heroin, I put some of the responsibility on the people who created it and promoted its use in the first place. It's naive to think we could make "super heroin" and it would stay restricted to safe, controlled medical environments. I'm not convinced the good it does in certain cases outweighs the enormous harm it's also responsible for.
- cwkoss 4y ago
  I don't think academic pharmacologists should try to avoid discovering drugs that have potential for abuse. They should be following medical efficacy - and it seems like generally they are. Nobody was 'contracted to invent super heroin', they modified molecules with medical efficacy and tested to see which ones were also effective. Drug discovery is a much less deliberate process than you are making it sound.
- yyyyyyy 4y ago
  > I put some of the responsibility on the people who created it and promoted it's use in the first place. While there was a little bit of questionable marketing around some forms of fentanyl it was mostly around for the ride - the real blockbuster drugs leading to the medical establishment opioid crisis were hydrocodone, oxycodone and tramadol. Making fentanyl a scapegoat is misplaced. The opioid epidemic did not need a "super heroin". > It's naive to think we could make "super heroin" and it would stay restricted to safe, controlled medical environments It's naive to think organized crime cartels would not have figured it out anyway.
  - calibas 4y ago
    I'm not making fentanyl a scapegoat, just look at the US drug overdose statistics, especially the huge jump around 2020. Fentanyl is eclipsing every other opioid, synthetic or otherwise. It alone is responsible for what is quickly becoming the deadliest drug epidemic of all time. There's good reason for my harsh criticism, and I don't think most people truly realize how bad the situation is.
docandrew 4y ago
I’m aware of it being used for epidurals, but honest question - how does this particular painkiller save someone’s life instead of another, less potent painkiller at a higher dosage?

CuriouslyC 4y ago

Yup, people don't realize but whereas a brick of heroin is a lot, a brick of fentanyl can supply a decent sized city. Because small amounts are so valuable, it's super easy to smuggle, and for a long time the Chinese would produce and sell it at rock bottom prices (I'm guessing that was state sponsored as a finger to the west for opium and the opium wars, which they're still very sore about)

nibbleshifter 4y ago
> I'm guessing that was state sponsored as a finger to the west I've heard this only from people with no experience dealing with the Chinese chemical industry. I don't think people fully realise how hands off the state typically was in the last couple of decades - you could get Chinese contract labs or chemical suppliers to make and ship you almost anything, and they would even mislabel it to get it through customs. There were dozens of labs that were churning out batches of whatever the latest "research chemical" "not for human consumption" was, for the western consumer market. No state sponsor needed - the business was extremely lucrative for all involved, and the materials absolutely dirt cheap to produce. There was a solid 10 or so years where simply picking out a new analogue and having it manufactured to order was a de-facto licence to print money due to how long it took for a novel substance to be banned.
- CuriouslyC 4y ago
  I've had dealings with Chinese chemical producers. You don't open a business or sell things to foreign countries in China without the CCP's knowledge and some small degree of consent. Considering the risks and the degree of monitoring I doubt Chinese chemical producers would try to pull a fast one on the party. The party also almost certainly provided capital for a lot of these businesses.

calibas 4y ago

Yes, most of the fentanyl that's abused comes from illegal sources. However, like cocaine, methamphetamine and heroin, I put some of the responsibility on the people who created it and promoted its use in the first place. It's naive to think we could make "super heroin" and it would stay restricted to safe, controlled medical environments. I'm not convinced the good it does in certain cases outweighs the enormous harm it's also responsible for.

cwkoss 4y ago
I don't think academic pharmacologists should try to avoid discovering drugs that have potential for abuse. They should be following medical efficacy - and it seems like generally they are. Nobody was 'contracted to invent super heroin', they modified molecules with medical efficacy and tested to see which ones were also effective. Drug discovery is a much less deliberate process than you are making it sound.
yyyyyyy 4y ago
> I put some of the responsibility on the people who created it and promoted it's use in the first place. While there was a little bit of questionable marketing around some forms of fentanyl it was mostly around for the ride - the real blockbuster drugs leading to the medical establishment opioid crisis were hydrocodone, oxycodone and tramadol. Making fentanyl a scapegoat is misplaced. The opioid epidemic did not need a "super heroin". > It's naive to think we could make "super heroin" and it would stay restricted to safe, controlled medical environments It's naive to think organized crime cartels would not have figured it out anyway.
- calibas 4y ago
  I'm not making fentanyl a scapegoat, just look at the US drug overdose statistics, especially the huge jump around 2020. Fentanyl is eclipsing every other opioid, synthetic or otherwise. It alone is responsible for what is quickly becoming the deadliest drug epidemic of all time. There's good reason for my harsh criticism, and I don't think most people truly realize how bad the situation is.

docandrew 4y ago

I’m aware of it being used for epidurals, but honest question - how does this particular painkiller save someone’s life instead of another, less potent painkiller at a higher dosage?