4 ms·

What’s wild is that the entire concept, as we know it, of “undocumented workers” only existed for the past ~22 years.

by SpeedilyDamage 4y ago

treeman79 4y ago
[flagged]
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- Diederich 4y ago
  I grew up in Southern California in the 1970s, and a non-trival percentage of the daily conversations I had with normal people had to be in Spanish, because their English was much worse than my Spanish, which was fair. "Southern California" was/is a very, very big area. I grew up southeast of downtown. Can you share where/when you grew up? Just curious. As far as 'replacement': I can't dismiss such opinions out of hand, but for another anecdote: two of my great grandparents, who came from Germany in the late 19th century, lived in the US for many decades and never learned English that well. Their children, my dad's father, of course spoke English fluently.
  - SpeedilyDamage 4y ago
    I guess I’m not sure I understand what’s so great about English anyway. Why not switch to Spanish, or at least adopt a more bilingual approach where it makes sense.
marcusverus 4y ago
You think that the concept of unauthorized workers coming across the border has only existed since the year 2000? I think you're confusing the term "undocumented" or "undocumented worker" with the underlying concept that's referenced by the terms. The concept has long been in in the public spotlight using different terms ("illegal" or "illegal alien"). Here's some statements from Gerald Ford on the same concept, using the old lingo: https://www.fordlibrarymuseum.gov/library/document/0110/1181029.pdf https://www.fordlibrarymuseum.gov/library/document/0110/1181...
- rtkwe 4y ago
  Ironically modern tighter boarder controls contribute to more people moving here permanently/semi-permanently. When border crossings were easier and cheaper migrant workers could come work for a harvest or several and return to Mexico or beyond during the off season only living in the US for a short period while working. Now the crossing is more expensive and dangerous so the incentive is to move here full time.
  - marcusverus 4y ago
    > Ironically modern tighter boarder controls contribute to more people moving here permanently/semi-permanently. Border crossings are at a 20 year high, but the problem is that border controls are too tight? That seems odd.
    - SpeedilyDamage 4y ago
      The problem you're having here is that you think "border crossings = bad", but that's not really the issue, is it? If a person doesn't live in the US, and is instead allowed to commute to/from Mexico, you get the upsides of their labor without the "downsides" of supporting them (IMO a disgusting way of thinking about it but here we are). Considering they pay income taxes, sales taxes, social security/medicaid, and don't make much use of US resources, it seems to me that you would want border crossings to increase dramatically, as long as they're accompanied by a corresponding crossing back home at the end of the day. ...which is exactly how it was, 20ish years ago, before 9/11.
      - notch656c 4y ago
        It's more profitable to our lower classes to keep the Mexicans / Guatemalans / whatever locked up in their own country to suppress their wages and competition and then allow free trade of goods. That gets us lots of cheap shit without having to pay USA wages. I'm in favor of open borders mostly on humanitarian grounds, and I offer our lower wage laborers as offerings on the pillar of sacrifice for that.
NTARelix 4y ago
I have memories of illegal immigrant workers from longer than 22 years ago and the USA has had immigration laws for much longer than 22 years. Have I misunderstood your statement?
- SpeedilyDamage 4y ago
  I think you missed the “as we know it now” part. How did the US southern border work in your memories? Would you be surprised to learn it was almost unrecognizable compared to what it is now?
renewiltord 4y ago
Here are Reagan and H.W. debating whether "children of illegal aliens should be allowed to use schools" https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=YsmgPp_nlok https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=YsmgPp_nlok This is from 43 years ago.

What’s wild is that the entire concept, as we know it, of “undocumented workers” only existed for the past ~22 years.

treeman79 4y ago

[flagged]

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
Diederich 4y ago
I grew up in Southern California in the 1970s, and a non-trival percentage of the daily conversations I had with normal people had to be in Spanish, because their English was much worse than my Spanish, which was fair. "Southern California" was/is a very, very big area. I grew up southeast of downtown. Can you share where/when you grew up? Just curious. As far as 'replacement': I can't dismiss such opinions out of hand, but for another anecdote: two of my great grandparents, who came from Germany in the late 19th century, lived in the US for many decades and never learned English that well. Their children, my dad's father, of course spoke English fluently.
- SpeedilyDamage 4y ago
  I guess I’m not sure I understand what’s so great about English anyway. Why not switch to Spanish, or at least adopt a more bilingual approach where it makes sense.

marcusverus 4y ago

You think that the concept of unauthorized workers coming across the border has only existed since the year 2000? I think you're confusing the term "undocumented" or "undocumented worker" with the underlying concept that's referenced by the terms. The concept has long been in in the public spotlight using different terms ("illegal" or "illegal alien"). Here's some statements from Gerald Ford on the same concept, using the old lingo: https://www.fordlibrarymuseum.gov/library/document/0110/1181029.pdf https://www.fordlibrarymuseum.gov/library/document/0110/1181...

rtkwe 4y ago
Ironically modern tighter boarder controls contribute to more people moving here permanently/semi-permanently. When border crossings were easier and cheaper migrant workers could come work for a harvest or several and return to Mexico or beyond during the off season only living in the US for a short period while working. Now the crossing is more expensive and dangerous so the incentive is to move here full time.
- marcusverus 4y ago
  > Ironically modern tighter boarder controls contribute to more people moving here permanently/semi-permanently. Border crossings are at a 20 year high, but the problem is that border controls are too tight? That seems odd.
  - SpeedilyDamage 4y ago
    The problem you're having here is that you think "border crossings = bad", but that's not really the issue, is it? If a person doesn't live in the US, and is instead allowed to commute to/from Mexico, you get the upsides of their labor without the "downsides" of supporting them (IMO a disgusting way of thinking about it but here we are). Considering they pay income taxes, sales taxes, social security/medicaid, and don't make much use of US resources, it seems to me that you would want border crossings to increase dramatically, as long as they're accompanied by a corresponding crossing back home at the end of the day. ...which is exactly how it was, 20ish years ago, before 9/11.
    - notch656c 4y ago
      It's more profitable to our lower classes to keep the Mexicans / Guatemalans / whatever locked up in their own country to suppress their wages and competition and then allow free trade of goods. That gets us lots of cheap shit without having to pay USA wages. I'm in favor of open borders mostly on humanitarian grounds, and I offer our lower wage laborers as offerings on the pillar of sacrifice for that.

NTARelix 4y ago

I have memories of illegal immigrant workers from longer than 22 years ago and the USA has had immigration laws for much longer than 22 years. Have I misunderstood your statement?

SpeedilyDamage 4y ago
I think you missed the “as we know it now” part. How did the US southern border work in your memories? Would you be surprised to learn it was almost unrecognizable compared to what it is now?

renewiltord 4y ago

Here are Reagan and H.W. debating whether "children of illegal aliens should be allowed to use schools" https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=YsmgPp_nlok https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=YsmgPp_nlok This is from 43 years ago.