4 ms·

First, let me say that I'm not attempting to give my own opinion on the direction that folks should go in. I'm most interested in bringing awareness as to what'

by mfer 4y ago

First, let me say that I'm not attempting to give my own opinion on the direction that folks should go in. I'm most interested in bringing awareness as to what's going on so we can have deeper understanding and discussion. With the school his is from, look at what their vision isn't. It's not to create well educated people who can excel at their jobs. Their vision isn't to create people who are self sustaining adults who can operate in society. Their vision is to get people civically engaged around certain forms of change. The specific forms of change are not agreed to as a culture in the US. This is an area where we don't have good in depth thoughtful conversations, either.

nobody9999 4y ago
>Their vision is to get people civically engaged around certain forms of change. >The specific forms of change are not agreed to as a culture in the US. This is an area where we don't have good in depth thoughtful conversations, either. That's not what you initially said, nor do I understand how "civic engagement" is ever a bad thing. In fact, we need lots more of it. You are applying ("The specific forms of change are not agreed to as a culture in the US") your trained-in prejudices as the right way, the only way. That's a little disturbing. I'd add, as far as creating civic engagement is concerned, that you should never, metaphorically (and literally) speaking, hand someone a gun unless you know where they're going to point it. I, and most reasonable humans, want more civic engagement from everyone. Including those with whom we disagree. Because that's how we make sure our society and government are working. Discouraging civic engagement for any reason is bad, IMHO. It's unfortunate that you don't come right out and say what you mean, rather than using inference and innuendo: You don't like what other folks want, so you want to ban it, or at least discredit those you believe disagree with you. At least that's my take on your comments. Please do correct me if I'm wrong.
- mfer 4y ago
  To try and be more clear, I'm not attempting to give my own opinion on what should happen with regard to these topics. I'm attempting to highlight the disconnect. To get closer to a root of what's happening. This is from direct conversations with people across the political spectrum and from reading about it. > Discouraging civic engagement for any reason is bad, IMHO. When we deal with things there are priorities. What's the most important, what's less important, what's mildly important, etc. Where does pushing for civic engagement relate priority wise with things like being able to handle your finances as an adult? Or being able to take care of your home? Or being able to hold a job? Or being prepared for college (if that's your route)? The vision, in this case, points to civic engagement. It leaves out the others which makes them less of a priority. Now, relate that to things like skilled trades. That's not something you need a college degree for and doing those jobs doesn't relate to being civically engaged. Many schools don't provide the foundation for people to even start in skilled trades even though we have a lack of skilled trades folks that's growing. This is a simple angle for priorities. Even within Civic Engagement there are priorities. Who gets to choose the priorities to steer the kids into? At what age does the steering start? Who gets to prioritize that? Should it be university professors putting together programs for teachers to go through? Then those teachers implement those ideas with their students? Should it be the general public opinions? Priorities are multi-dimensional. The leaders who lead our school leaders are setting the agenda. And, there are a bunch of people who disagree with that. Again, please note, I'm not stating my opinion on these topics. I'm trying to highlight a little deeper on the root.
  - nobody9999 4y ago
    >To try and be more clear, I'm not attempting to give my own opinion on what should happen with regard to these topics. I'm attempting to highlight the disconnect. To get closer to a root of what's happening. This is from direct conversations with people across the political spectrum and from reading about it. Not bad. Still a bunch of mealy-mouthed bullshit, but a little better. Keep working on it. Perhaps you might one day convince someone you're actually a reasonable human being. I won't hold my breath. Health and good fortune to you.
- lostmsu 4y ago
  > you don't come right out and say what you mean, rather than using inference and innuendo: You don't like what other folks want, so you want to ban it, or at least discredit those you believe disagree with you > Please do correct me if I'm wrong. The parent comment quite right out says the problem is prioritization. I'd rather see "critical thinking, first order logic and math" in place of "civic engagement". You say yourself "you should never, metaphorically (and literally) speaking, hand someone a gun unless you know where they're going to point it". In my view, inducing "civic engagement" is "giving a gun", and teaching "where ... to point it" is math.
  - nobody9999 4y ago
    >The parent comment quite right out says the problem is prioritization. Actually, the grandparent comment[0] says nothing of the sort. mfer brings up prioritization in their response[1] to my comment. >You say yourself "you should never, metaphorically (and literally) speaking, hand someone a gun unless you know where they're going to point it". I do. And teaching civics is that gun. And understanding how our government and society functions is a powerful tool. Everyone should be taught such things, regardless of how they may use them. My point is that teaching civic engagement does not "tell people where to point" that metaphorical gun. Rather, it gives people the knowledge and understanding to engage and interact with their society and political system. For whatever purpose a person feels appropriate. Teaching someone how our system of government works and encouraging them to make use of that knowledge doesn't tell them "where to point" that knowledge. I'd add that if you're ignorant of such things, you deprive yourself of knowledge that will allow you to interact more effectively with our system of government. And understanding how our system works and how to utilize the power (and responsibility) inherent in citizenship is critical to maintaining a free, open and democratic society. That's not to say that teaching math or literacy or science or how to tie your shoes isn't important. They absolutely are, and no one here (or in any of the links provided by GP) says they aren't. In fact, mfer didn't mention "prioritization" until I called them out for their "dog whistles"[2]. I don't know GP or what's in their mind, nor do I pretend to do so. All I can do in that respect is draw conclusions from what they write. I did so. You apparently disagree with my assessment and perhaps I'm way off base. But the argument made by mfer in the comment to which I replied had all the hallmarks of coded language slamming "academia" and pedagogy, with absolutely zero evidence or support for such an attitude among academics. It's a poster boy for "those academics and educated elites are indoctrinating our kids into destroying the nation." Which is scaremongering and "othering"[3] of our fellow Americans. And I take great umbrage to anyone (including other Americans) who want to make their fellow countrymen "the enemy." Not just because it's promoting division to advance a political agenda, but also because it's intellectually dishonest to cherry pick quotes in order to demonize others. Finally, I'd point out that most of the rhetoric around all the bashing of civil society seems to be done by folks who don't actually understand how our systems work. Which is the best argument for teaching civics/civic engagement, IMHO. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34492386 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34492386 [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34493562 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34493562 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_whistle_(politics) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_whistle_(politics) [3] https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/othering https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/other... Edit: Added reference for the term "othering." Corrected my prose.

by mfer 4y ago

nobody9999 4y ago

>Their vision is to get people civically engaged around certain forms of change. >The specific forms of change are not agreed to as a culture in the US. This is an area where we don't have good in depth thoughtful conversations, either. That's not what you initially said, nor do I understand how "civic engagement" is ever a bad thing. In fact, we need lots more of it. You are applying ("The specific forms of change are not agreed to as a culture in the US") your trained-in prejudices as the right way, the only way. That's a little disturbing. I'd add, as far as creating civic engagement is concerned, that you should never, metaphorically (and literally) speaking, hand someone a gun unless you know where they're going to point it. I, and most reasonable humans, want more civic engagement from everyone. Including those with whom we disagree. Because that's how we make sure our society and government are working. Discouraging civic engagement for any reason is bad, IMHO. It's unfortunate that you don't come right out and say what you mean, rather than using inference and innuendo: You don't like what other folks want, so you want to ban it, or at least discredit those you believe disagree with you. At least that's my take on your comments. Please do correct me if I'm wrong.

mfer 4y ago
To try and be more clear, I'm not attempting to give my own opinion on what should happen with regard to these topics. I'm attempting to highlight the disconnect. To get closer to a root of what's happening. This is from direct conversations with people across the political spectrum and from reading about it. > Discouraging civic engagement for any reason is bad, IMHO. When we deal with things there are priorities. What's the most important, what's less important, what's mildly important, etc. Where does pushing for civic engagement relate priority wise with things like being able to handle your finances as an adult? Or being able to take care of your home? Or being able to hold a job? Or being prepared for college (if that's your route)? The vision, in this case, points to civic engagement. It leaves out the others which makes them less of a priority. Now, relate that to things like skilled trades. That's not something you need a college degree for and doing those jobs doesn't relate to being civically engaged. Many schools don't provide the foundation for people to even start in skilled trades even though we have a lack of skilled trades folks that's growing. This is a simple angle for priorities. Even within Civic Engagement there are priorities. Who gets to choose the priorities to steer the kids into? At what age does the steering start? Who gets to prioritize that? Should it be university professors putting together programs for teachers to go through? Then those teachers implement those ideas with their students? Should it be the general public opinions? Priorities are multi-dimensional. The leaders who lead our school leaders are setting the agenda. And, there are a bunch of people who disagree with that. Again, please note, I'm not stating my opinion on these topics. I'm trying to highlight a little deeper on the root.
- nobody9999 4y ago
  >To try and be more clear, I'm not attempting to give my own opinion on what should happen with regard to these topics. I'm attempting to highlight the disconnect. To get closer to a root of what's happening. This is from direct conversations with people across the political spectrum and from reading about it. Not bad. Still a bunch of mealy-mouthed bullshit, but a little better. Keep working on it. Perhaps you might one day convince someone you're actually a reasonable human being. I won't hold my breath. Health and good fortune to you.
lostmsu 4y ago
> you don't come right out and say what you mean, rather than using inference and innuendo: You don't like what other folks want, so you want to ban it, or at least discredit those you believe disagree with you > Please do correct me if I'm wrong. The parent comment quite right out says the problem is prioritization. I'd rather see "critical thinking, first order logic and math" in place of "civic engagement". You say yourself "you should never, metaphorically (and literally) speaking, hand someone a gun unless you know where they're going to point it". In my view, inducing "civic engagement" is "giving a gun", and teaching "where ... to point it" is math.
- nobody9999 4y ago
  >The parent comment quite right out says the problem is prioritization. Actually, the grandparent comment[0] says nothing of the sort. mfer brings up prioritization in their response[1] to my comment. >You say yourself "you should never, metaphorically (and literally) speaking, hand someone a gun unless you know where they're going to point it". I do. And teaching civics is that gun. And understanding how our government and society functions is a powerful tool. Everyone should be taught such things, regardless of how they may use them. My point is that teaching civic engagement does not "tell people where to point" that metaphorical gun. Rather, it gives people the knowledge and understanding to engage and interact with their society and political system. For whatever purpose a person feels appropriate. Teaching someone how our system of government works and encouraging them to make use of that knowledge doesn't tell them "where to point" that knowledge. I'd add that if you're ignorant of such things, you deprive yourself of knowledge that will allow you to interact more effectively with our system of government. And understanding how our system works and how to utilize the power (and responsibility) inherent in citizenship is critical to maintaining a free, open and democratic society. That's not to say that teaching math or literacy or science or how to tie your shoes isn't important. They absolutely are, and no one here (or in any of the links provided by GP) says they aren't. In fact, mfer didn't mention "prioritization" until I called them out for their "dog whistles"[2]. I don't know GP or what's in their mind, nor do I pretend to do so. All I can do in that respect is draw conclusions from what they write. I did so. You apparently disagree with my assessment and perhaps I'm way off base. But the argument made by mfer in the comment to which I replied had all the hallmarks of coded language slamming "academia" and pedagogy, with absolutely zero evidence or support for such an attitude among academics. It's a poster boy for "those academics and educated elites are indoctrinating our kids into destroying the nation." Which is scaremongering and "othering"[3] of our fellow Americans. And I take great umbrage to anyone (including other Americans) who want to make their fellow countrymen "the enemy." Not just because it's promoting division to advance a political agenda, but also because it's intellectually dishonest to cherry pick quotes in order to demonize others. Finally, I'd point out that most of the rhetoric around all the bashing of civil society seems to be done by folks who don't actually understand how our systems work. Which is the best argument for teaching civics/civic engagement, IMHO. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34492386 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34492386 [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34493562 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34493562 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_whistle_(politics) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_whistle_(politics) [3] https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/othering https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/other... Edit: Added reference for the term "othering." Corrected my prose.