8 ms·

Pretty sure this is the right answer and calling this "worker productivity" seems a bit harsh. A "Pretty Good House" (book that was on the front page last week)

by belval 4y ago

Pretty sure this is the right answer and calling this "worker productivity" seems a bit harsh. A "Pretty Good House" (book that was on the front page last week) includes insulation above and below the foundation slab, vapour barriers, double studs to break thermal bridges, complex window installation (again thermal bridges), air exchangers and heat pumps with ducts (or mini-splits). New constructions (for cold zone), need to be air tight and that certainly comes at a cost in time as it is work to apply all the layers, run the conduits and whatnot.

kodah 4y ago
I have no data to back this observation up, but everyone (especially in the media, but also in corporate life) is attacking "worker productivity" lately. Everyone's got a reason, but when you dig into them they all stink.
- spamizbad 4y ago
  It's a convenient narrative. We're all suffering because the workers are too lazy!
- dougmwne 4y ago
  Yeah those lazy builders need to stop working from home and put on a damn tie!
- dumpsterlid 4y ago
  [dead]
- swagasaurus-rex 4y ago
  From the mouth of CEOs it's clear they're trying to wrestle back low wages and unpaid overtime using shame. Especially out of touch when they bad mouth their own subordinates and think it doesn't reflect poorly on themselves. https://www.cnbc.com/2022/12/16/marc-benioff-says-newer-salesforce-employees-are-less-productive.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/12/16/marc-benioff-says-newer-sale...
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- acuozzo 4y ago
  My fear is that the driver behind this is widespread WFH due to COVID-19. Assessing "worker productivity" is hard for all but the most simple jobs, but the desire to do so, I reckon, is buried deep within each mind of the pointy-haired. The unfortunate reality of the situation is that so-called "bullshit jobs" form the basis for the only system approximating UBI in the US, so movement in this space will further erode what remains of the American middle class… … and AI will grind it down to the nub.
- gruez 4y ago
  >but everyone (especially in the media, but also in corporate life) is attacking "worker productivity" lately I don't need bar graphs or anything, but can you provide some recent examples you saw? I certainly don't remember seeing articles to that effect recently.
recuter 4y ago
Book may have been on the front page last week but I assure you very very few people in the US have insulation above and below their foundations or incredibly air tight houses.
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  Gotta start somewhere. Older houses were built when energy was cheap and plentiful, and we're transitioning to a future where that isn't as clear.
  - recuter 4y ago
    You can pay the greenie winnie tax and go full passive house and be completely off grid sitting pretty in an airtight optimally efficient home: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhbLjEKKLVM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhbLjEKKLVM It would also triple the construction cost of the house. Reasons. But hey, $0 energy bill. Most builders don't do any of that stuff, like at all. Just the bare minimum required. They aren't incentivized. Most consumers would - and do - opt for single pane windows over dual, and dual over triple, 'etc. Even when the windows would "pay for themselves" over their lifetime.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - toast0 4y ago
      The bare minimum is a lot more than it used to be. My parents' house was built with zero attic insulation, and I believe no wall insulation either. Just framed, drywalled insided and stucco outside. I can't imagine there's any fire blocks between studs either.
      - notch656c 4y ago
        Upping the codes to require new construction to have those things, while not razing your parents' house, shows it's all about the pyramid scheme and not about actual safety. If it were about actual safety and such things are considered unsafe then unsafe houses like your parents home should be bulldozed for the good of the people.
hinkley 4y ago
More build steps, more safety steps, less undocumented overtime, ballooning costs of benefits. And I would be surprised if logistics don't play a role as well. Used to be more buffer in our distribution systems for materials. In a scenario where warehouses have surplus goods sitting around, I expect it's easier to call in a favor and get an extra shipment of materials for the partially finished garage that didn't make it into the estimates.
mindslight 4y ago
Don't forget all the roofline complexity for "aesthetics". Or higher pitches because they look nice too. It'd be interesting to see these stats broken out by trade, with an appropriate unit (/sqft might make sense for roofing, but it doesn't for wall sheathing). I'd think a good chunk of this is due to safety expectations as well. It's a lot easier to walk around a roof if you aren't concerned with fall protection.
- yamtaddle 4y ago
  Yeah, all these fugly pop-outs that are typical in the "McMansion" style have to take a lot more time than just making a normal, more-or-less rectangular-footprint house. More measuring, more cutting, more separate pieces to apply, for every layer that goes on. More ridges and valleys to deal with when roofing. They do make the house look bigger (on the outside) than a same-square-footage house with a more traditional floor plan, though, so... I guess that makes it worth it, to someone?
  - smcl 4y ago
    You may enjoy the "McMansion Hell" blog, it explores all the little details that cause us to be repulsed by this type of house. They have a "McMansions 101" post which is a nice place to get started - https://mcmansionhell.com/post/148605513816/mcmansions-101-what-makes-a-mcmansion-bad https://mcmansionhell.com/post/148605513816/mcmansions-101-w...
bbradley406 4y ago
As someone who works in construction, I have to say that rolling a few sheets of barrier or framing a couple extra walls really doesn't take that long or cost too much. It's on the order of $5k or less and a couple days work, for both materials and labor. What does cost time and money is getting permits, planning approval, inspection, etc. Not that those are unimportant, but any delays are certainly not on the construction crew's behalf.

by belval 4y ago

kodah 4y ago

I have no data to back this observation up, but everyone (especially in the media, but also in corporate life) is attacking "worker productivity" lately. Everyone's got a reason, but when you dig into them they all stink.

spamizbad 4y ago
It's a convenient narrative. We're all suffering because the workers are too lazy!
dougmwne 4y ago
Yeah those lazy builders need to stop working from home and put on a damn tie!
dumpsterlid 4y ago
[dead]
swagasaurus-rex 4y ago
From the mouth of CEOs it's clear they're trying to wrestle back low wages and unpaid overtime using shame. Especially out of touch when they bad mouth their own subordinates and think it doesn't reflect poorly on themselves. https://www.cnbc.com/2022/12/16/marc-benioff-says-newer-salesforce-employees-are-less-productive.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/12/16/marc-benioff-says-newer-sale...
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
acuozzo 4y ago
My fear is that the driver behind this is widespread WFH due to COVID-19. Assessing "worker productivity" is hard for all but the most simple jobs, but the desire to do so, I reckon, is buried deep within each mind of the pointy-haired. The unfortunate reality of the situation is that so-called "bullshit jobs" form the basis for the only system approximating UBI in the US, so movement in this space will further erode what remains of the American middle class… … and AI will grind it down to the nub.
gruez 4y ago
>but everyone (especially in the media, but also in corporate life) is attacking "worker productivity" lately I don't need bar graphs or anything, but can you provide some recent examples you saw? I certainly don't remember seeing articles to that effect recently.

recuter 4y ago

Book may have been on the front page last week but I assure you very very few people in the US have insulation above and below their foundations or incredibly air tight houses.

toomuchtodo 4y ago
Gotta start somewhere. Older houses were built when energy was cheap and plentiful, and we're transitioning to a future where that isn't as clear.
- recuter 4y ago
  You can pay the greenie winnie tax and go full passive house and be completely off grid sitting pretty in an airtight optimally efficient home: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhbLjEKKLVM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhbLjEKKLVM It would also triple the construction cost of the house. Reasons. But hey, $0 energy bill. Most builders don't do any of that stuff, like at all. Just the bare minimum required. They aren't incentivized. Most consumers would - and do - opt for single pane windows over dual, and dual over triple, 'etc. Even when the windows would "pay for themselves" over their lifetime.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - toast0 4y ago
    The bare minimum is a lot more than it used to be. My parents' house was built with zero attic insulation, and I believe no wall insulation either. Just framed, drywalled insided and stucco outside. I can't imagine there's any fire blocks between studs either.
    - notch656c 4y ago
      Upping the codes to require new construction to have those things, while not razing your parents' house, shows it's all about the pyramid scheme and not about actual safety. If it were about actual safety and such things are considered unsafe then unsafe houses like your parents home should be bulldozed for the good of the people.

hinkley 4y ago

More build steps, more safety steps, less undocumented overtime, ballooning costs of benefits. And I would be surprised if logistics don't play a role as well. Used to be more buffer in our distribution systems for materials. In a scenario where warehouses have surplus goods sitting around, I expect it's easier to call in a favor and get an extra shipment of materials for the partially finished garage that didn't make it into the estimates.

mindslight 4y ago

Don't forget all the roofline complexity for "aesthetics". Or higher pitches because they look nice too. It'd be interesting to see these stats broken out by trade, with an appropriate unit (/sqft might make sense for roofing, but it doesn't for wall sheathing). I'd think a good chunk of this is due to safety expectations as well. It's a lot easier to walk around a roof if you aren't concerned with fall protection.

yamtaddle 4y ago
Yeah, all these fugly pop-outs that are typical in the "McMansion" style have to take a lot more time than just making a normal, more-or-less rectangular-footprint house. More measuring, more cutting, more separate pieces to apply, for every layer that goes on. More ridges and valleys to deal with when roofing. They do make the house look bigger (on the outside) than a same-square-footage house with a more traditional floor plan, though, so... I guess that makes it worth it, to someone?
- smcl 4y ago
  You may enjoy the "McMansion Hell" blog, it explores all the little details that cause us to be repulsed by this type of house. They have a "McMansions 101" post which is a nice place to get started - https://mcmansionhell.com/post/148605513816/mcmansions-101-what-makes-a-mcmansion-bad https://mcmansionhell.com/post/148605513816/mcmansions-101-w...

bbradley406 4y ago

As someone who works in construction, I have to say that rolling a few sheets of barrier or framing a couple extra walls really doesn't take that long or cost too much. It's on the order of $5k or less and a couple days work, for both materials and labor. What does cost time and money is getting permits, planning approval, inspection, etc. Not that those are unimportant, but any delays are certainly not on the construction crew's behalf.