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Oh boy, the pharmaceutical companies can sell a new product to help solve the mess that one of their previous products created. An opioid that's more potent, m

Oh boy, the pharmaceutical companies can sell a new product to help solve the mess that one of their previous products created. An opioid that's more potent, more addictive, and more deadly than heroin should never have gone to market in the first place. It speaks of enormous corruption and a complete lack of ethics when regulators didn't see an issue with fentanyl and let it move forward. The "but people are in pain" argument doesn't hold up very well when heroin is safer and has less potential for abuse but they already made illegal in the US.

floor2 4y ago
>sell a new product to help solve the mess that one of their previous products created That's gotta describe like 75% of US healthcare budget, right? Red Dye #40, BPA, preservatives, emulsifiers, PFAS -> ADHD, Anxiety, Depression -> Adderall, Xanax, Prozac Sugar, seed oils, preservatives, endocrine-disrupting chemicals in food, water & air -> Obesity, hypertension, diabetes -> Lipitor, Insulin Alcohol, smoked/grilled meat, tobacco, microplastics, pesticide residues, air pollution from cars & factories -> cancer
- l33t233372 4y ago
  I don’t think there’s a reputable link between red dye #40, BPA, preservatives, emulsifiers(?!) and ADHD, anxiety, and depression. Further, are you claiming meat, tobacco, and alcohol are products of the US pharmaceutical industry?
  - floor2 4y ago
    Literally everything on this list is supported by publicly available, peer-reviewed papers that could be found by 30 seconds of googling, but people downvote instead of being curious and learning something. Here's a layman-friendly article that covers several papers on red dye #40: https://www.verywellhealth.com/red-dye-40-adhd-5220957 https://www.verywellhealth.com/red-dye-40-adhd-5220957 Here's a page from Columbia university on BPA: https://www.publichealth.columbia.edu/research/columbia-center-childrens-environmental-health/bisphenol-bpa https://www.publichealth.columbia.edu/research/columbia-cent... with quote "Researchers have linked BPA to developmental and health problems in children, including learning and behavior conditions like Attention Deficit Hyperactive Disorder (ADHD), anxiety and depression"
    - noptd 4y ago
      You're getting downvoted for making a strong causal claim without initially citing any sources, and the citations in this comment don't even support your claim. From your first link: >It’s important to note that artificial food colors do not cause ADHD.8 One study found that removing artificial food colors from the diet had a statistically significant effect on ADHD symptoms, however. The authors noted that the improvements were modest but still statistically significant.9
whoomp12342 4y ago
its not only that, the vaccine will create issues for people when they want to have a surgery so it CREATES NEW ISSUES
- bt1a 4y ago
  While fentanyl is amazingly effective in a controlled environment like an operating room, it's not the only option at their disposal. I suppose if this vaccine took off and you got it, it'd be good to keep an electronic medical ID on you.
  - ceejayoz 4y ago
    It's the option they tend to select for a reason, though.
yyyyyyy 4y ago
> An opioid that's more potent, more addictive, and more deadly than heroin should never have gone to market in the first place. This is a little misplaced. Fentanyl is a medically useful drug. Fentanyl had years of use as an anesthetic agent (and still does - it is an essential ICU medication) before the idea of marketing it for other purposes occurred. And without defending the pharma industry and their role one bit. The vast majority of fentanyl these days is not from big pharma, and it's arguable what relative role fentanyl played vs all the other drugs Specifically, the demand for illegitimate fentanyl today was mostly driven due to addictions from other medications that were NOT fentanyl - such as oxy, hydrocodone and even the "safe" tramadol. Having said that, it's going to be a hard sell that all opioids should be banned. There is some middle ground between reserving for palliative and acute critical illness and having PCPs prescribe for simple back pain. > heroin is safer It is a smidge more complex. Fentanyl has some pharmacologic properties that make it safer for controlled use in sick patients. Heroin has similar metabolite related side effects as morphine.
exabrial 4y ago
I would suggest becoming actually educated before developing strong opinions. The drug is extremely useful and saves lives in a clinical setting; chances are it will save your life or someone you know and love. It's literally used _every hour_ around the clock in ERs. Nearly all problematic Fentanyl in the US is illegally imported and created by third parties overseas. It is not manufactured by those big bad US Pharma companies.
- CuriouslyC 4y ago
  Yup, people don't realize but whereas a brick of heroin is a lot, a brick of fentanyl can supply a decent sized city. Because small amounts are so valuable, it's super easy to smuggle, and for a long time the Chinese would produce and sell it at rock bottom prices (I'm guessing that was state sponsored as a finger to the west for opium and the opium wars, which they're still very sore about)
  - nibbleshifter 4y ago
    > I'm guessing that was state sponsored as a finger to the west I've heard this only from people with no experience dealing with the Chinese chemical industry. I don't think people fully realise how hands off the state typically was in the last couple of decades - you could get Chinese contract labs or chemical suppliers to make and ship you almost anything, and they would even mislabel it to get it through customs. There were dozens of labs that were churning out batches of whatever the latest "research chemical" "not for human consumption" was, for the western consumer market. No state sponsor needed - the business was extremely lucrative for all involved, and the materials absolutely dirt cheap to produce. There was a solid 10 or so years where simply picking out a new analogue and having it manufactured to order was a de-facto licence to print money due to how long it took for a novel substance to be banned.
    - CuriouslyC 4y ago
      I've had dealings with Chinese chemical producers. You don't open a business or sell things to foreign countries in China without the CCP's knowledge and some small degree of consent. Considering the risks and the degree of monitoring I doubt Chinese chemical producers would try to pull a fast one on the party. The party also almost certainly provided capital for a lot of these businesses.
Waterluvian 4y ago
A memory that un-repressed itself about a year ago was being a teenager and hearing my mom wailing, "I can't do it anymore. I'm done." in the later stages of her cancer treatment. Apparently shortly after that they had a fairly significant intervention with the physicians and she got fentanyl patches. I got about another year with her. I completely agree that there's a ton of recklessness in the history of opioid prescription. It's been a horrible plague on society that will have generations of lasting impact. But there's uses for it. I dunno, maybe heroin patches could have become a thing?
kstrauser 4y ago
If I fall off a ladder and break my leg, I want the good stuff. I’ve found old bottles of expired Vicodin and such around that I was prescribed but never finished. I have zero interest in recreationally using opiates. I also have zero interest in bravely tolerating agonizing pain if I don’t have to.
- LarryMullins 4y ago
  It's easy to say this when you already know that you, personally, can resist the temptation of abusing drugs like Vicodin. Personally, I refuse all pain killers except OTC and local anesthetics like novocaine. I rather risk biting through my tongue than getting addicted to that shit.
  - kstrauser 4y ago
    I get that, but that doesn't mean there's no room for powerful painkillers for the situations that call for them. If someone dying from cancer wants to be stoned out of their minds to avoid the pain, I'm all for letting them. You and I don't want that because our current circumstances don't call for it. Someday, they might. If that day comes, I wouldn't want to live in a world without access to strong analgesics.
    - SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
      I think that the palliative care of a cancer patient is slightly different than a broken leg. Only one of these lead to the opioid crises.
      - kstrauser 4y ago
        I don't know about that. The immediate post-trauma care of something like a broken leg would reasonably involve strong narcotics. You're not going to be sent home with a batch of it, but may get some on your way to surgery.
        4y ago
htag 4y ago
> It speaks of enormous corruption and a complete lack of ethics when regulators didn't see an issue with fentanyl and let it move forward. Do you think there would be a meaningful difference in the volume of illicit fentanyl if it was never approved by the FDA?
- calibas 4y ago
  If the manufacturers and regulators were more concerned with human lives than making money, they would have quietly buried the research. It may have entered the illegal market eventually, but there wouldn't be factories producing large quantities of the drug like there are now. They should have known that an opioid 50 times more potent, deadlier, and more addictive than heroin would be responsible for the worst drug epidemic the world has ever seen.
  - htag 4y ago
    I think we fundamentally disagree here. There might be some 20:20 hindsight way to completely avoid the opioid crisis (especially with the behavior of Purdue Pharma), but from my perspective if Fentanyl (or other potent synthetic opioid) reaches illicit manufacturing it almost always becomes a dominate force in the black market. The cost, strength, and ease of smuggling are big perks. Regulators have little impact on what black market drug labs produce.
at_a_remove 4y ago
Eh. I'm an an antique Schedule II drug. The literature notes that people with my condition don't seem to end up addicted to said drug (or its pals). Probably because we're just glad to take the edge off the pain. It's already rather potent, as painkillers go, as it previously was given to women in labor. However, as my condition becomes more severe, a time will come when I will have to "graduate" to something stronger. The end of that choo-choo train looks like fentanyl or something very much like it, assuming I don't just up and die first. I'm glad that there is something there. A friend of mine, his mother died of the same thing many years ago, when it was poorly understood and largely untreated. She was kept in a distant corner of the house so that the screams were less bothersome. Raving in pain, she would curse his name for not helping her to die. That's what it looks like at the end when there's not enough painkillers. So I guess if you get your way, can I bunk at your place? I joke, but only a little. You don't have a lot of skin in this particular game. Consequences are far away, third-order at best. I dunno, maybe listening to someone howling away might bring it home, maybe not. To someone like me, it looks like someone who won't really be affected at all just trying to yank one of the few solutions I have left away, and for no good reason at all.

floor2 4y ago

>sell a new product to help solve the mess that one of their previous products created That's gotta describe like 75% of US healthcare budget, right? Red Dye #40, BPA, preservatives, emulsifiers, PFAS -> ADHD, Anxiety, Depression -> Adderall, Xanax, Prozac Sugar, seed oils, preservatives, endocrine-disrupting chemicals in food, water & air -> Obesity, hypertension, diabetes -> Lipitor, Insulin Alcohol, smoked/grilled meat, tobacco, microplastics, pesticide residues, air pollution from cars & factories -> cancer

l33t233372 4y ago
I don’t think there’s a reputable link between red dye #40, BPA, preservatives, emulsifiers(?!) and ADHD, anxiety, and depression. Further, are you claiming meat, tobacco, and alcohol are products of the US pharmaceutical industry?
- floor2 4y ago
  Literally everything on this list is supported by publicly available, peer-reviewed papers that could be found by 30 seconds of googling, but people downvote instead of being curious and learning something. Here's a layman-friendly article that covers several papers on red dye #40: https://www.verywellhealth.com/red-dye-40-adhd-5220957 https://www.verywellhealth.com/red-dye-40-adhd-5220957 Here's a page from Columbia university on BPA: https://www.publichealth.columbia.edu/research/columbia-center-childrens-environmental-health/bisphenol-bpa https://www.publichealth.columbia.edu/research/columbia-cent... with quote "Researchers have linked BPA to developmental and health problems in children, including learning and behavior conditions like Attention Deficit Hyperactive Disorder (ADHD), anxiety and depression"
  - noptd 4y ago
    You're getting downvoted for making a strong causal claim without initially citing any sources, and the citations in this comment don't even support your claim. From your first link: >It’s important to note that artificial food colors do not cause ADHD.8 One study found that removing artificial food colors from the diet had a statistically significant effect on ADHD symptoms, however. The authors noted that the improvements were modest but still statistically significant.9

whoomp12342 4y ago

its not only that, the vaccine will create issues for people when they want to have a surgery so it CREATES NEW ISSUES

bt1a 4y ago
While fentanyl is amazingly effective in a controlled environment like an operating room, it's not the only option at their disposal. I suppose if this vaccine took off and you got it, it'd be good to keep an electronic medical ID on you.
- ceejayoz 4y ago
  It's the option they tend to select for a reason, though.

yyyyyyy 4y ago

> An opioid that's more potent, more addictive, and more deadly than heroin should never have gone to market in the first place. This is a little misplaced. Fentanyl is a medically useful drug. Fentanyl had years of use as an anesthetic agent (and still does - it is an essential ICU medication) before the idea of marketing it for other purposes occurred. And without defending the pharma industry and their role one bit. The vast majority of fentanyl these days is not from big pharma, and it's arguable what relative role fentanyl played vs all the other drugs Specifically, the demand for illegitimate fentanyl today was mostly driven due to addictions from other medications that were NOT fentanyl - such as oxy, hydrocodone and even the "safe" tramadol. Having said that, it's going to be a hard sell that all opioids should be banned. There is some middle ground between reserving for palliative and acute critical illness and having PCPs prescribe for simple back pain. > heroin is safer It is a smidge more complex. Fentanyl has some pharmacologic properties that make it safer for controlled use in sick patients. Heroin has similar metabolite related side effects as morphine.

exabrial 4y ago

I would suggest becoming actually educated before developing strong opinions. The drug is extremely useful and saves lives in a clinical setting; chances are it will save your life or someone you know and love. It's literally used _every hour_ around the clock in ERs. Nearly all problematic Fentanyl in the US is illegally imported and created by third parties overseas. It is not manufactured by those big bad US Pharma companies.

CuriouslyC 4y ago
Yup, people don't realize but whereas a brick of heroin is a lot, a brick of fentanyl can supply a decent sized city. Because small amounts are so valuable, it's super easy to smuggle, and for a long time the Chinese would produce and sell it at rock bottom prices (I'm guessing that was state sponsored as a finger to the west for opium and the opium wars, which they're still very sore about)
- nibbleshifter 4y ago
  > I'm guessing that was state sponsored as a finger to the west I've heard this only from people with no experience dealing with the Chinese chemical industry. I don't think people fully realise how hands off the state typically was in the last couple of decades - you could get Chinese contract labs or chemical suppliers to make and ship you almost anything, and they would even mislabel it to get it through customs. There were dozens of labs that were churning out batches of whatever the latest "research chemical" "not for human consumption" was, for the western consumer market. No state sponsor needed - the business was extremely lucrative for all involved, and the materials absolutely dirt cheap to produce. There was a solid 10 or so years where simply picking out a new analogue and having it manufactured to order was a de-facto licence to print money due to how long it took for a novel substance to be banned.
  - CuriouslyC 4y ago
    I've had dealings with Chinese chemical producers. You don't open a business or sell things to foreign countries in China without the CCP's knowledge and some small degree of consent. Considering the risks and the degree of monitoring I doubt Chinese chemical producers would try to pull a fast one on the party. The party also almost certainly provided capital for a lot of these businesses.

Waterluvian 4y ago

A memory that un-repressed itself about a year ago was being a teenager and hearing my mom wailing, "I can't do it anymore. I'm done." in the later stages of her cancer treatment. Apparently shortly after that they had a fairly significant intervention with the physicians and she got fentanyl patches. I got about another year with her. I completely agree that there's a ton of recklessness in the history of opioid prescription. It's been a horrible plague on society that will have generations of lasting impact. But there's uses for it. I dunno, maybe heroin patches could have become a thing?

kstrauser 4y ago

If I fall off a ladder and break my leg, I want the good stuff. I’ve found old bottles of expired Vicodin and such around that I was prescribed but never finished. I have zero interest in recreationally using opiates. I also have zero interest in bravely tolerating agonizing pain if I don’t have to.

LarryMullins 4y ago
It's easy to say this when you already know that you, personally, can resist the temptation of abusing drugs like Vicodin. Personally, I refuse all pain killers except OTC and local anesthetics like novocaine. I rather risk biting through my tongue than getting addicted to that shit.
- kstrauser 4y ago
  I get that, but that doesn't mean there's no room for powerful painkillers for the situations that call for them. If someone dying from cancer wants to be stoned out of their minds to avoid the pain, I'm all for letting them. You and I don't want that because our current circumstances don't call for it. Someday, they might. If that day comes, I wouldn't want to live in a world without access to strong analgesics.
  - SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
    I think that the palliative care of a cancer patient is slightly different than a broken leg. Only one of these lead to the opioid crises.
    - kstrauser 4y ago
      I don't know about that. The immediate post-trauma care of something like a broken leg would reasonably involve strong narcotics. You're not going to be sent home with a batch of it, but may get some on your way to surgery.
      - 4y ago

htag 4y ago

> It speaks of enormous corruption and a complete lack of ethics when regulators didn't see an issue with fentanyl and let it move forward. Do you think there would be a meaningful difference in the volume of illicit fentanyl if it was never approved by the FDA?

calibas 4y ago
If the manufacturers and regulators were more concerned with human lives than making money, they would have quietly buried the research. It may have entered the illegal market eventually, but there wouldn't be factories producing large quantities of the drug like there are now. They should have known that an opioid 50 times more potent, deadlier, and more addictive than heroin would be responsible for the worst drug epidemic the world has ever seen.
- htag 4y ago
  I think we fundamentally disagree here. There might be some 20:20 hindsight way to completely avoid the opioid crisis (especially with the behavior of Purdue Pharma), but from my perspective if Fentanyl (or other potent synthetic opioid) reaches illicit manufacturing it almost always becomes a dominate force in the black market. The cost, strength, and ease of smuggling are big perks. Regulators have little impact on what black market drug labs produce.

at_a_remove 4y ago

Eh. I'm an an antique Schedule II drug. The literature notes that people with my condition don't seem to end up addicted to said drug (or its pals). Probably because we're just glad to take the edge off the pain. It's already rather potent, as painkillers go, as it previously was given to women in labor. However, as my condition becomes more severe, a time will come when I will have to "graduate" to something stronger. The end of that choo-choo train looks like fentanyl or something very much like it, assuming I don't just up and die first. I'm glad that there is something there. A friend of mine, his mother died of the same thing many years ago, when it was poorly understood and largely untreated. She was kept in a distant corner of the house so that the screams were less bothersome. Raving in pain, she would curse his name for not helping her to die. That's what it looks like at the end when there's not enough painkillers. So I guess if you get your way, can I bunk at your place? I joke, but only a little. You don't have a lot of skin in this particular game. Consequences are far away, third-order at best. I dunno, maybe listening to someone howling away might bring it home, maybe not. To someone like me, it looks like someone who won't really be affected at all just trying to yank one of the few solutions I have left away, and for no good reason at all.