5 ms·

Isn't this just common sense?

olao99 4y ago
"common sense" things need to be empirically tested and validated
Filligree 4y ago
It's "common sense" if you're familiar enough with chemistry and biology to realize that melting plastic means some small fraction of it will 'burn' and end up in the air. On the other hand, many entry-level 3D printers are marketed at... children, effectively. They can make for amazing christmas presents, but there's no guarantee that either parents nor child has any idea how things work at that level. There's been a concerted effort to make such knowledge unnecessary. All of that being said, PLA fumes are about as safe as it gets. To the best of my understanding it's about on the level of cooking food. For hours, granted, and usually without a fume hood -- but I don't think it's likely to cause health issues. ... And so long as you stick to PLA or PETG, that's probably fine. Oh, and so long as your printer was built with a quality, all metal heat break, so you never get teflon fumes from scorched PTFE lining. And so long as there's never a thermal runaway that causes fire, and/or it was built with good thermal runaway protection. These printers are still essentially industrial machinery, no matter how user friendly, and a lack of understanding their failure modes can be really bad.
- hot_gril 4y ago
  > It's "common sense" if you're familiar enough with chemistry and biology to realize that melting plastic means some small fraction of it will 'burn' and end up in the air. Last time I was near one, I could clearly smell the unpleasant burning plastic.
  - esskay 4y ago
    I know that smell, and rather annoyingly newer PLA's have somehow eliminated it. Which personally I dont see as a good thing. You used to know when someone was printing with PLA as it emitted a smell that was a mixture of a sweet popcorn and burning toast. These days they have little to no odour but I suspect its still putting out the exact same (if not worse) fumes.
    - hot_gril 4y ago
      Ah, that's unfortunate.
      - Filligree 4y ago
        Some printers also come with full enclosures and HEPA filters, which do well at removing the smell -- and no doubt some of the larger fragments -- but do not actually remove the VOCs. A good, recirculating activated carbon filter can do that. But then you need to swap it once per week (whether or not you've been printing), and you need the right type of carbon.
calibas 4y ago
The general consensus between actual users seemed to be that the fumes were obviously toxic and you should avoid breathing them in. However, there were always people who denied this, and I've never seen a manufacturer warn users about the fumes.
- Filligree 4y ago
  At least PLA fumes are far less toxic than ABS. So there's that. Which is nice. PTFE fumes though...
  - WhiteDawn 4y ago
    The results of this study actually presents that PLA fumes are more toxic than ABS fumes. In practice though, the study shows PLA is safer because of significantly less fume creation with the lower printing temperature. So relative risk for PLA is significantly lower than ABS, but it is incorrect to state that PLA is less toxic.
    - postalrat 4y ago
      You can smell the ABS fumes so they must be worse for you. The nose knows! /s
      - calibas 4y ago
        The human nose is an extremely sensitive chemical detector, and should not be dismissed. It's effective down to a fraction of parts per trillion for certain chemicals. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odor_detection_threshold#Odor_detection_value https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odor_detection_threshold#Odor_...
        ClumsyPilot 4y ago
        But for others, like carbon monoxide, it is useless and leaves you to die.
esskay 4y ago
It is, but you still regularly see people showing off their latest 3d printer which is sitting in a kids bedroom running all day, or their office. Often when questioned, the existance of it being in a case or there being a cheap air purifier in the corner of the room is cited as the reason why its 'fine'.
- fasthands9 4y ago
  I do feel like we dont really have sense of effects of particulate matter on the body. How does the risk of this compare to walking down a street with lots or running ICE cars? Or when you go into a basement and can smell the natural gas burning - is that a similar risk? If you told me being in the same room as a PLA printer was 10x worse I would believe it. If you told me being next to a car for 5 seconds was 10x worse I'd believe it. As far as I've read we dont have great metrics.
  - nick__m 4y ago
    In "ICE cars" the biggest sources of particulate matter are the tires and brakes¹, don't electric car have those too ? 1) https://www.researchgate.net/publication/317425487/figure/fig3/AS:613874445344789@1523370481529/Particulate-matter-formation-PMF-of-different-vehicle-technologies-based-on-10.png https://www.researchgate.net/publication/317425487/figure/fi...
    - fasthands9 4y ago
      Good point! I was mistaken. Though I think larger point stands that its very hard to know risks of different particulate sources (like brakes).
    - evan_ 4y ago
      Tires yes, but since EVs use regenerative braking at least some of the time I would think they'd be slightly better in that regard. Regenerative braking does not engage the brake pads.
  - 3pac 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
725686 4y ago
Common sense is the least common of the senses.
NietTim 4y ago
Honestly, not really. Even with a "super nerd" community like Voron, the popular opinion is to print ABS for functional parts but none of the standard designs include air filtering and the advice is to "just ventilate". I've noticed over the past months that questions about the "Nevermore" filter have increased but it's certainly not a widely shared best practice yet.

"common sense" things need to be empirically tested and validated

It's "common sense" if you're familiar enough with chemistry and biology to realize that melting plastic means some small fraction of it will 'burn' and end up in the air. On the other hand, many entry-level 3D printers are marketed at... children, effectively. They can make for amazing christmas presents, but there's no guarantee that either parents nor child has any idea how things work at that level. There's been a concerted effort to make such knowledge unnecessary. All of that being said, PLA fumes are about as safe as it gets. To the best of my understanding it's about on the level of cooking food. For hours, granted, and usually without a fume hood -- but I don't think it's likely to cause health issues. ... And so long as you stick to PLA or PETG, that's probably fine. Oh, and so long as your printer was built with a quality, all metal heat break, so you never get teflon fumes from scorched PTFE lining. And so long as there's never a thermal runaway that causes fire, and/or it was built with good thermal runaway protection. These printers are still essentially industrial machinery, no matter how user friendly, and a lack of understanding their failure modes can be really bad.

hot_gril 4y ago
> It's "common sense" if you're familiar enough with chemistry and biology to realize that melting plastic means some small fraction of it will 'burn' and end up in the air. Last time I was near one, I could clearly smell the unpleasant burning plastic.
- esskay 4y ago
  I know that smell, and rather annoyingly newer PLA's have somehow eliminated it. Which personally I dont see as a good thing. You used to know when someone was printing with PLA as it emitted a smell that was a mixture of a sweet popcorn and burning toast. These days they have little to no odour but I suspect its still putting out the exact same (if not worse) fumes.
  - hot_gril 4y ago
    Ah, that's unfortunate.
    - Filligree 4y ago
      Some printers also come with full enclosures and HEPA filters, which do well at removing the smell -- and no doubt some of the larger fragments -- but do not actually remove the VOCs. A good, recirculating activated carbon filter can do that. But then you need to swap it once per week (whether or not you've been printing), and you need the right type of carbon.

calibas 4y ago

The general consensus between actual users seemed to be that the fumes were obviously toxic and you should avoid breathing them in. However, there were always people who denied this, and I've never seen a manufacturer warn users about the fumes.

Filligree 4y ago
At least PLA fumes are far less toxic than ABS. So there's that. Which is nice. PTFE fumes though...
- WhiteDawn 4y ago
  The results of this study actually presents that PLA fumes are more toxic than ABS fumes. In practice though, the study shows PLA is safer because of significantly less fume creation with the lower printing temperature. So relative risk for PLA is significantly lower than ABS, but it is incorrect to state that PLA is less toxic.
  - postalrat 4y ago
    You can smell the ABS fumes so they must be worse for you. The nose knows! /s
    - calibas 4y ago
      The human nose is an extremely sensitive chemical detector, and should not be dismissed. It's effective down to a fraction of parts per trillion for certain chemicals. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odor_detection_threshold#Odor_detection_value https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odor_detection_threshold#Odor_...
      - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
        But for others, like carbon monoxide, it is useless and leaves you to die.

esskay 4y ago

It is, but you still regularly see people showing off their latest 3d printer which is sitting in a kids bedroom running all day, or their office. Often when questioned, the existance of it being in a case or there being a cheap air purifier in the corner of the room is cited as the reason why its 'fine'.

fasthands9 4y ago
I do feel like we dont really have sense of effects of particulate matter on the body. How does the risk of this compare to walking down a street with lots or running ICE cars? Or when you go into a basement and can smell the natural gas burning - is that a similar risk? If you told me being in the same room as a PLA printer was 10x worse I would believe it. If you told me being next to a car for 5 seconds was 10x worse I'd believe it. As far as I've read we dont have great metrics.
- nick__m 4y ago
  In "ICE cars" the biggest sources of particulate matter are the tires and brakes¹, don't electric car have those too ? 1) https://www.researchgate.net/publication/317425487/figure/fig3/AS:613874445344789@1523370481529/Particulate-matter-formation-PMF-of-different-vehicle-technologies-based-on-10.png https://www.researchgate.net/publication/317425487/figure/fi...
  - fasthands9 4y ago
    Good point! I was mistaken. Though I think larger point stands that its very hard to know risks of different particulate sources (like brakes).
  - evan_ 4y ago
    Tires yes, but since EVs use regenerative braking at least some of the time I would think they'd be slightly better in that regard. Regenerative braking does not engage the brake pads.
- 3pac 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

725686 4y ago

Common sense is the least common of the senses.

NietTim 4y ago

Honestly, not really. Even with a "super nerd" community like Voron, the popular opinion is to print ABS for functional parts but none of the standard designs include air filtering and the advice is to "just ventilate". I've noticed over the past months that questions about the "Nevermore" filter have increased but it's certainly not a widely shared best practice yet.