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Thanks, Jorge! I think the nix3 interface and the Flakes solve a lot of UX problems. Maybe we could do a bit of a user study, to see where you get hung up?

by grhmc 4y ago

Athas 4y ago
Don't those still give you a terrible error message if you use them in a default config?
- grhmc 4y ago
  They do, and using the installer we recommend enables Flakes and the Nix command out of the box: https://zero-to-nix.com/start/install#up https://zero-to-nix.com/start/install#up. We think flakes and the new interface are the future, and we're working to bring it home.
unshavedyak 4y ago
What's the `nix3 interface`? I use NixOS with Flakes, but frankly it's quite obtuse lol. I don't even know how to specifically update my `nix`. I updated to the latest release the other week and my `nix` CLI is on `2.11`. Are you referencing a 3.0 version of the `nix` CLI? If is there a summary somewhere on what is different between 2.xx and 3.0? Though i still have no clue how to update to 3.0 if i wanted to. Searching for `nix` is incredibly obtuse given the language is Nix and the OS is Nix. (I know i know, Nix, NixOS, Nixpkgs, but you know what i mean)
- edolstra 4y ago
  It refers to the new CLI, i.e. the "nix" command. The old CLI is the nix-* commands (nix-env, nix-store, etc.). The new CLI and flakes are still marked experimental, but the plan is to stabilize them and call that "3.0". So it won't be very different from the current 2.12 - you just won't need to enable some experimental features anymore to get the new CLI/flakes.
  - the_duke 4y ago
    Do you have an idea when the stabilization might come? I've been using flakes for well over a year and there doesn't seem to be much discernible progress.
    - Macha 4y ago
      Because of politics (see RFC 49, 134, 136), I don't see this actually happening that soon. There is agreement in principle to carve out a store only Nix so the no-flakes crowd can build their own UI on it which is held by them as a pre-requisite to any stabilisation of flakes, along with some bad blood of it being announced by blog post. But it's slow because the project maintainer and chief flakes advocate doesn't want to adjust the project just so an alternative frontend specifically to avoid their view of an easier Nix should go ahead. People are still working somewhat constructively towards this in 134, but because their goals feel fundamentally opposed, it seems likely to go on a while.
      - pxc 4y ago
        The Nix team, including the Nix author and chief developer of flakes (upstream in this thread, so be kind all), is also working right now on enabling the nix3 UI for non-flakes setups as well: https://discourse.nixos.org/t/2023-01-16-nix-team-meeting-minutes-24/24721 https://discourse.nixos.org/t/2023-01-16-nix-team-meeting-mi... Consensus is hard but I'm glad to see people coming together on this. Really looking forward to seeing the new Nix command and flakes move forward (independently)
        unshavedyak 4y ago
        Funny i don't want a UI, i just want better type systems so some random field is easily known. I know it's difficult, but strictly from a user experience - that's all i want lol.
        pxc 4y ago
        I'm really optimistic about Nickel, which is a new DSL based on Nix (in terms of inspiration) and designed for Nixpkgs-like use, but informed by the designs of other DSLs in the same space (e.g., Starlark, CUE, JSonnet). One of the things it adds over Nix's design is types (it grew out of early efforts to add gradual typing to Nix). It has a gradual typing system with 'contracts' for dealing with untyped code. I have spent some time doing exercises and examples in it, first in Nix code and then translating it to Nickel. It feels very Nix-y, in the best way, and I think in the end it will be very nice to use. Definitely check it out if you have thoughts about Nixlang and how it could be better! Development is very active and the maintainers seem quite appreciative of testing and feedback. https://github.com/tweag/nickel https://github.com/tweag/nickel
- JamesSwift 4y ago
  > I don't even know how to specifically update my `nix` I just clean reinstalled when I went from v2 to v3. Thats the great thing about nix... the rebuilt system is still the same after I installed : ) Note that in nix v3, updating nix is a simple `sudo nix upgrade-nix`, which is really nice.
  - unshavedyak 4y ago
    Is that with flakes though? That's my thing, i'm using flakes, and it's difficult to know what is with flakes or without. Updating my root `nixpkgs` did seem to update my `nix` CLI, but that felt a bit heavy handed. I had a difficult time finding out how to override just the Nix CLI version.
    - JamesSwift 4y ago
      Flakes and 'nix command' are actually 2 separate, experimental features. I think the new nix command has some dependence on flakes, but I'm not sure what. I use flakes though, so you should be good as well. I think it would only potentially be an issue for non-flakes? I really, really, really wish they would rip the band-aid off and just have everything assume flakes with an easy opt-out. Let all the newcomers reap the benefits of a massively simplified model.

Thanks, Jorge! I think the nix3 interface and the Flakes solve a lot of UX problems. Maybe we could do a bit of a user study, to see where you get hung up?

by grhmc 4y ago

Thanks, Jorge! I think the nix3 interface and the Flakes solve a lot of UX problems. Maybe we could do a bit of a user study, to see where you get hung up?

Athas 4y ago

Don't those still give you a terrible error message if you use them in a default config?

grhmc 4y ago
They do, and using the installer we recommend enables Flakes and the Nix command out of the box: https://zero-to-nix.com/start/install#up https://zero-to-nix.com/start/install#up. We think flakes and the new interface are the future, and we're working to bring it home.

unshavedyak 4y ago

What's the `nix3 interface`? I use NixOS with Flakes, but frankly it's quite obtuse lol. I don't even know how to specifically update my `nix`. I updated to the latest release the other week and my `nix` CLI is on `2.11`. Are you referencing a 3.0 version of the `nix` CLI? If is there a summary somewhere on what is different between 2.xx and 3.0? Though i still have no clue how to update to 3.0 if i wanted to. Searching for `nix` is incredibly obtuse given the language is Nix and the OS is Nix. (I know i know, Nix, NixOS, Nixpkgs, but you know what i mean)

edolstra 4y ago
It refers to the new CLI, i.e. the "nix" command. The old CLI is the nix-* commands (nix-env, nix-store, etc.). The new CLI and flakes are still marked experimental, but the plan is to stabilize them and call that "3.0". So it won't be very different from the current 2.12 - you just won't need to enable some experimental features anymore to get the new CLI/flakes.
- the_duke 4y ago
  Do you have an idea when the stabilization might come? I've been using flakes for well over a year and there doesn't seem to be much discernible progress.
  - Macha 4y ago
    Because of politics (see RFC 49, 134, 136), I don't see this actually happening that soon. There is agreement in principle to carve out a store only Nix so the no-flakes crowd can build their own UI on it which is held by them as a pre-requisite to any stabilisation of flakes, along with some bad blood of it being announced by blog post. But it's slow because the project maintainer and chief flakes advocate doesn't want to adjust the project just so an alternative frontend specifically to avoid their view of an easier Nix should go ahead. People are still working somewhat constructively towards this in 134, but because their goals feel fundamentally opposed, it seems likely to go on a while.
    - pxc 4y ago
      The Nix team, including the Nix author and chief developer of flakes (upstream in this thread, so be kind all), is also working right now on enabling the nix3 UI for non-flakes setups as well: https://discourse.nixos.org/t/2023-01-16-nix-team-meeting-minutes-24/24721 https://discourse.nixos.org/t/2023-01-16-nix-team-meeting-mi... Consensus is hard but I'm glad to see people coming together on this. Really looking forward to seeing the new Nix command and flakes move forward (independently)
      - unshavedyak 4y ago
        Funny i don't want a UI, i just want better type systems so some random field is easily known. I know it's difficult, but strictly from a user experience - that's all i want lol.
        pxc 4y ago
        I'm really optimistic about Nickel, which is a new DSL based on Nix (in terms of inspiration) and designed for Nixpkgs-like use, but informed by the designs of other DSLs in the same space (e.g., Starlark, CUE, JSonnet). One of the things it adds over Nix's design is types (it grew out of early efforts to add gradual typing to Nix). It has a gradual typing system with 'contracts' for dealing with untyped code. I have spent some time doing exercises and examples in it, first in Nix code and then translating it to Nickel. It feels very Nix-y, in the best way, and I think in the end it will be very nice to use. Definitely check it out if you have thoughts about Nixlang and how it could be better! Development is very active and the maintainers seem quite appreciative of testing and feedback. https://github.com/tweag/nickel https://github.com/tweag/nickel
JamesSwift 4y ago
> I don't even know how to specifically update my `nix` I just clean reinstalled when I went from v2 to v3. Thats the great thing about nix... the rebuilt system is still the same after I installed : ) Note that in nix v3, updating nix is a simple `sudo nix upgrade-nix`, which is really nice.
- unshavedyak 4y ago
  Is that with flakes though? That's my thing, i'm using flakes, and it's difficult to know what is with flakes or without. Updating my root `nixpkgs` did seem to update my `nix` CLI, but that felt a bit heavy handed. I had a difficult time finding out how to override just the Nix CLI version.
  - JamesSwift 4y ago
    Flakes and 'nix command' are actually 2 separate, experimental features. I think the new nix command has some dependence on flakes, but I'm not sure what. I use flakes though, so you should be good as well. I think it would only potentially be an issue for non-flakes? I really, really, really wish they would rip the band-aid off and just have everything assume flakes with an easy opt-out. Let all the newcomers reap the benefits of a massively simplified model.