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If a law is passed the presumption under democracy is it has the assent of the majority. Personally I'm not a huge fan of democracy, but you're looking at it.

CydeWeys 4y ago
To be clear, this isn't democracy, it's republicanism. Laws get passed in republicanism all the time that the majority of the people don't agree with, because their representatives aren't actually representing their interests.
- notch656c 4y ago
  If the government doesn't have the assent of the people is it not illegitimate? I thought the whole presumption under our system was the representatives have the assent of the majority.
  - mcv 4y ago
    I still remember that in 2010, the approval rating of US Congress was 10%, and yet 90% of incumbents was reelected. How the hell is that possible?
    - notch656c 4y ago
      I think it is because their state's congressman they think is acting in their interest, while the other states' congressman are not. And they're not wrong... Personally I also find it bizarre system where the majority vote of the other 49 states tells your state what to do, under federal law, particularly in wholly intrastate matters.
      - jdmichal 4y ago
        A lot of federal-law-telling-states-what-to-do is not tied to criminal punishment, but rather financial punishment. Federal taxation basically permits the US government the first share of our income. The US government then chooses to redistribute large chunks of money back to the state government, but only as long as it plays by the rules. So states can either play by the rules, or have to make up that money by essentially double-taxing their residents. I'm sure states would love to just take that money in directly, but the federal government gets first dibs and states complete with each other on the remaining taxation. For instance, Florida is not just a popular retirement spot for the weather -- it also has zero income tax and a property tax with capped year-over-year growth.
    - yamtaddle 4y ago
      "Congressional approval rating" is a dumb and misleading stat and I hate that it's reported on so much, especially in contexts like comparing to to e.g. the President's approval rating. Maybe you love your representative and Senator(s) but your party is in the minority. So, you don't approve of Congress. Maybe ditto on the liking your reps, but Congress is always doing really stupid shit even when your side's in charge (like the goddamn own-goal "debt ceiling" bullshit) simply because they can't rally enough support to make that junk stop, so you don't approve of Congress. Or maybe your side controls both houses and the Presidency but still can't do jack-shit because of Senate rules, or because some other Senator or two (not yours) in your preferred party like playing both sides to advance their state's interests at the expense of everyone else—so you don't approve of Congress. Maybe you like your reps and your side is in charge but you've really taken anti-politician stand-up jokes to heart, or follow media that highlights and exaggerates all the stuff you hate about reps on the "other side" even when yours is in charge, so you tick the "disapprove" box. And so on.
      - CydeWeys 4y ago
        To make an extreme example, let's say that 99 senators are great and everyone loves them, but 1 senator is terrible and the rules of the Senate happen to allow filibusters. You could have a situation as a result where 98-99% of people approve of their senator, but a small minority approves of the overall output of the Senate.
  - walls 4y ago
    If you can get your population to believe that the other choices are literally demons trying to condemn them to hell, it's an easy fear based decision for uneducated voters.
  - tastyfreeze 4y ago
    There are plenty of people in the US that will agree that the current federal government is almost entirely illegitimate. That majority of things our government currently does are not powers granted to it in the Constitution. There is a massive corrupting temptation of corporate money for all members of congress. We might elect somebody that we believe will represent us but ultimately they are swooned by the siren song of fat sacks of cash. However, I think more often than not, the people that get elected spent the most money on their campaign. The majority of money spent of campaigns comes from contributions that we are supposed to believe don't buy influence. Whatever you feel about Matt Gaetz, his interview with Tim Pool illustrates the corporate influence issue we are up against. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0q2dgVuS2QY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0q2dgVuS2QY
  - mrguyorama 4y ago
    Republicans are generally much more moderate in their personal ideologies than what their representatives do. But it doesn't matter because they still vote them back into office no matter what.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
anotherman554 4y ago
"If a law is passed the presumption under democracy is it has the assent of the majority. " Why would that be the presumption instead of, you know, looking at polls?
- notch656c 4y ago
  Because then you would realize the whole charade about the social contract and consent to be governed under the law all falls apart and there is nothing left but whether you decide to defend against the violence of enforcement.
  - anotherman554 4y ago
    You do you, but I'd think most people can look at poll data without the accompanying feeling of existential dread.

CydeWeys 4y ago

To be clear, this isn't democracy, it's republicanism. Laws get passed in republicanism all the time that the majority of the people don't agree with, because their representatives aren't actually representing their interests.

notch656c 4y ago
If the government doesn't have the assent of the people is it not illegitimate? I thought the whole presumption under our system was the representatives have the assent of the majority.
- mcv 4y ago
  I still remember that in 2010, the approval rating of US Congress was 10%, and yet 90% of incumbents was reelected. How the hell is that possible?
  - notch656c 4y ago
    I think it is because their state's congressman they think is acting in their interest, while the other states' congressman are not. And they're not wrong... Personally I also find it bizarre system where the majority vote of the other 49 states tells your state what to do, under federal law, particularly in wholly intrastate matters.
    - jdmichal 4y ago
      A lot of federal-law-telling-states-what-to-do is not tied to criminal punishment, but rather financial punishment. Federal taxation basically permits the US government the first share of our income. The US government then chooses to redistribute large chunks of money back to the state government, but only as long as it plays by the rules. So states can either play by the rules, or have to make up that money by essentially double-taxing their residents. I'm sure states would love to just take that money in directly, but the federal government gets first dibs and states complete with each other on the remaining taxation. For instance, Florida is not just a popular retirement spot for the weather -- it also has zero income tax and a property tax with capped year-over-year growth.
  - yamtaddle 4y ago
    "Congressional approval rating" is a dumb and misleading stat and I hate that it's reported on so much, especially in contexts like comparing to to e.g. the President's approval rating. Maybe you love your representative and Senator(s) but your party is in the minority. So, you don't approve of Congress. Maybe ditto on the liking your reps, but Congress is always doing really stupid shit even when your side's in charge (like the goddamn own-goal "debt ceiling" bullshit) simply because they can't rally enough support to make that junk stop, so you don't approve of Congress. Or maybe your side controls both houses and the Presidency but still can't do jack-shit because of Senate rules, or because some other Senator or two (not yours) in your preferred party like playing both sides to advance their state's interests at the expense of everyone else—so you don't approve of Congress. Maybe you like your reps and your side is in charge but you've really taken anti-politician stand-up jokes to heart, or follow media that highlights and exaggerates all the stuff you hate about reps on the "other side" even when yours is in charge, so you tick the "disapprove" box. And so on.
    - CydeWeys 4y ago
      To make an extreme example, let's say that 99 senators are great and everyone loves them, but 1 senator is terrible and the rules of the Senate happen to allow filibusters. You could have a situation as a result where 98-99% of people approve of their senator, but a small minority approves of the overall output of the Senate.
- walls 4y ago
  If you can get your population to believe that the other choices are literally demons trying to condemn them to hell, it's an easy fear based decision for uneducated voters.
- tastyfreeze 4y ago
  There are plenty of people in the US that will agree that the current federal government is almost entirely illegitimate. That majority of things our government currently does are not powers granted to it in the Constitution. There is a massive corrupting temptation of corporate money for all members of congress. We might elect somebody that we believe will represent us but ultimately they are swooned by the siren song of fat sacks of cash. However, I think more often than not, the people that get elected spent the most money on their campaign. The majority of money spent of campaigns comes from contributions that we are supposed to believe don't buy influence. Whatever you feel about Matt Gaetz, his interview with Tim Pool illustrates the corporate influence issue we are up against. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0q2dgVuS2QY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0q2dgVuS2QY
- mrguyorama 4y ago
  Republicans are generally much more moderate in their personal ideologies than what their representatives do. But it doesn't matter because they still vote them back into office no matter what.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

anotherman554 4y ago

"If a law is passed the presumption under democracy is it has the assent of the majority. " Why would that be the presumption instead of, you know, looking at polls?

notch656c 4y ago
Because then you would realize the whole charade about the social contract and consent to be governed under the law all falls apart and there is nothing left but whether you decide to defend against the violence of enforcement.
- anotherman554 4y ago
  You do you, but I'd think most people can look at poll data without the accompanying feeling of existential dread.