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Context as to what's happening in US schools... This highlights part of the growing movement and disagreement around culture shaping through kids. To highligh

by mfer 4y ago

Context as to what's happening in US schools... This highlights part of the growing movement and disagreement around culture shaping through kids. To highlight this, if you take a look at school of educations mission statement[1] > Through commitment to innovation, social justice, excellence in teaching and research, and partnerships, the School of Teacher Education will position itself as a national leader in shaping the next generation of educators to be agents of transformation in an ever‐changing world. Other schools [2] in the US are more explicit on change... > School of Education devoted to developing civically engaged children, youth, and adults for a diverse and inclusive society. There are many parents who are not supportive of the drive for change. Often pushing views that parents don't agree with. Books are a subtle way to bring in change. The ideas in them. Especially as elementary age kids who are impressionable learn to read from these books. The disagreements between parents and some teachers around this is at the heart of laws like this. [1] https://ccie.ucf.edu/teachered/mission/ https://ccie.ucf.edu/teachered/mission/ [2] https://soe.umich.edu/about#mission-vision https://soe.umich.edu/about#mission-vision

schulboy 4y ago
“Back in my day…” there was a crusade against Christian prayer and what not. Keep things neutral - to the point that teachers who were otherwise obviously religious would completely dodge the topic when my intellectually curious atheist self asked on topics. Now we’re back at teachers here-and-they’re wanting to assert their belief system in the classroom and activist parents seeking to eliminate this issue… only the script is a bit flipped. So, the question becomes should we keep schools neutral or not?
- mfer 4y ago
  > So, the question becomes should we keep schools neutral or not? What is the role of school? Is the role to prep kids to go to college? Is it to drive social change? Is it to teach what kids need to perform common jobs? Is it to teach kids how to have skills to operate as adults (like managing their personal finances)? These are questions we don't agree on as a culture. A bunch of debate is rooted in disagreement as to what these should be.
  - chmod600 4y ago
    "What is the role of school?" There are really only two possible answers in the current public school systenlm: 1. Whatever a broad consensus of people want them to do. 2. Whatever a slim majority can impose on the rest. As consensus evaporates, we are left with the latter. This plays out in red/blue states differently. Eventually, we may need to move to a voucher system so that the parents just pick a school that they like.
    - mfer 4y ago
      > There are really only two possible answers in the current public school systenlm: There is one more option. Have a small group of people push their agenda while the masses are mostly unaware.
      - chmod600 4y ago
        By asking what the role is, you presupposed that we can decide on one, and that it will somehow happen. If the adminstrators and teachers don't fulfill their role, that's a different question.
- MonkeyMalarky 4y ago
  There might be a slight difference between prayers in classrooms and books being available in a library for children to check out if interested. Unless you're suggesting that all material containing any religious content or characters also be excluded from libraries in the name of neutrality?
- everforward 4y ago
  I think there's some validity to this thought process. I'm of the opinion the books shouldn't be banned, but this point gives me pause. There's an obvious difference here via the 1st amendment, which doesn't regulate social issues, but that's more legal technicality than philosophy. My experience as a kid (after these crusades) was that religion wasn't forbidden as a topic, but that endorsement or derision of any particular religion was forbidden. E.g. it would be fine to ask what the difference in belief is between a Catholic and an Amish, but a teacher would probably refuse to answer if asked which one is better supported by historical fact. One of the history classes spent a week or two on the various common religions. If I'm recalling correctly, the school library had copies of at least the Bible, the Quran and a Hebrew Bible (I feel like there was a better term but I can't recall it). There wasn't an attempt to hide the information, the school just couldn't endorse a particular religion. Tolerance was generally encouraged to all religions (or lack thereof). This feels like it's going further than the religious issues. It's an attempt to suppress knowledge, rather than to suppress opinion.
- feoren 4y ago
  > there was a crusade against Christian prayer Bullshit. There was a backlash against forced Christian prayer, as there should be. > teachers here-and-they’re wanting to assert their belief system in the classroom Bullshit. Making a wide variety of books available to interested students is literally the opposite of asserting a specific belief system. > activist parents Bullshit. This is very clearly neo-fascist alt-right book-burners trying to bring about white Christian nationalism. Very clearly: they're not even trying to hide this fact. Any argument that does not acknowledge this is a bald-faced attempt to instate white Christian nationalism is not in good faith. > the question becomes should we keep schools neutral or not? Bullshit. This is a clear attempt to set the standard for "neutral" as "white Christian nationalist" and anything other than that as non-neutral. > my intellectually curious atheist self Green username, bad-faith argument filled with bullshit. Why do I get this feeling this statement is similar to "as a gay black man ..."
  - spoils19 4y ago
    > Bullshit. There was a backlash against forced Christian prayer, as there should be. Need I remind you that the US is one nation _under God_? > Bullshit. Making a wide variety of books available to interested students is literally the opposite of asserting a specific belief system. It'll be quite "convenient" if certain books had more space on the shelves than others. > Green username, bad-faith argument filled with bullshit. Why do I get this feeling this statement is similar to "as a gay black man ..." Please make sure you're following the HackerNews commenting guidelines. :>
    - feoren 4y ago
      > Need I remind you that the US is one nation _under God_? I refused to recite that fascist bullshit in school, and "under God" was added by Dwight Eisenhower in 1954. I disagree that the US is "under God". What's your point? You're going to come to my house and wreck the place if I don't kneel for your God? What are you even talking about? > It'll be quite "convenient" if certain books had more space on the shelves than others. What are you talking about? Say what you mean. Otherwise it'll be quite "convenient" if your grandmother turns out to be a bicycle. > Please make sure you're following the HackerNews commenting guidelines. :> "Assume good faith" stops when strong evidence presented that the argument is in bad faith. I stated what that evidence was.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > “Back in my day…” there was a crusade against Christian prayer and what not. No, there wasn't. There has historically been litigation against forced or state-agent-led prayer, and that litigation was often by Christian (or Christian-adjacent; boundaries are disputed) groups.
nobody9999 4y ago
>Other schools [2] in the US are more explicit on change... ?> School of Education devoted to developing civically engaged children, youth, and adults for a diverse and inclusive society. Why is developing "civic engagement" among our population a bad thing? Why is a "diverse and inclusive" society a bad thing? Not being snarky here, I just really don't understand how reducing civic engagement and excluding those who are "different" are good things. Perhaps you could explain your reasoning around that?
- mfer 4y ago
  First, let me say that I'm not attempting to give my own opinion on the direction that folks should go in. I'm most interested in bringing awareness as to what's going on so we can have deeper understanding and discussion. With the school his is from, look at what their vision isn't. It's not to create well educated people who can excel at their jobs. Their vision isn't to create people who are self sustaining adults who can operate in society. Their vision is to get people civically engaged around certain forms of change. The specific forms of change are not agreed to as a culture in the US. This is an area where we don't have good in depth thoughtful conversations, either.
  - nobody9999 4y ago
    >Their vision is to get people civically engaged around certain forms of change. >The specific forms of change are not agreed to as a culture in the US. This is an area where we don't have good in depth thoughtful conversations, either. That's not what you initially said, nor do I understand how "civic engagement" is ever a bad thing. In fact, we need lots more of it. You are applying ("The specific forms of change are not agreed to as a culture in the US") your trained-in prejudices as the right way, the only way. That's a little disturbing. I'd add, as far as creating civic engagement is concerned, that you should never, metaphorically (and literally) speaking, hand someone a gun unless you know where they're going to point it. I, and most reasonable humans, want more civic engagement from everyone. Including those with whom we disagree. Because that's how we make sure our society and government are working. Discouraging civic engagement for any reason is bad, IMHO. It's unfortunate that you don't come right out and say what you mean, rather than using inference and innuendo: You don't like what other folks want, so you want to ban it, or at least discredit those you believe disagree with you. At least that's my take on your comments. Please do correct me if I'm wrong.
mikrotikker 4y ago
That book Gender Queer is terrible though. A seriously mentally ill person who suffered horrible abuse from her parents should not be writing such vile content with such pornographic imagery for children. How it ever got approved as a children's book is beyond me. It is however a great tool for parents to see how utterly disturbed the books the schools are giving their kids are, and if they're smart pull them into homeschooling.
- gaganyaan 4y ago
  I just read it. Wtf are you on about? There's nothing vile in there, it's a frank memoir of growing up. You and Florida both need to chill the fuck out with this witch hunt.

by mfer 4y ago

schulboy 4y ago

“Back in my day…” there was a crusade against Christian prayer and what not. Keep things neutral - to the point that teachers who were otherwise obviously religious would completely dodge the topic when my intellectually curious atheist self asked on topics. Now we’re back at teachers here-and-they’re wanting to assert their belief system in the classroom and activist parents seeking to eliminate this issue… only the script is a bit flipped. So, the question becomes should we keep schools neutral or not?

mfer 4y ago
> So, the question becomes should we keep schools neutral or not? What is the role of school? Is the role to prep kids to go to college? Is it to drive social change? Is it to teach what kids need to perform common jobs? Is it to teach kids how to have skills to operate as adults (like managing their personal finances)? These are questions we don't agree on as a culture. A bunch of debate is rooted in disagreement as to what these should be.
- chmod600 4y ago
  "What is the role of school?" There are really only two possible answers in the current public school systenlm: 1. Whatever a broad consensus of people want them to do. 2. Whatever a slim majority can impose on the rest. As consensus evaporates, we are left with the latter. This plays out in red/blue states differently. Eventually, we may need to move to a voucher system so that the parents just pick a school that they like.
  - mfer 4y ago
    > There are really only two possible answers in the current public school systenlm: There is one more option. Have a small group of people push their agenda while the masses are mostly unaware.
    - chmod600 4y ago
      By asking what the role is, you presupposed that we can decide on one, and that it will somehow happen. If the adminstrators and teachers don't fulfill their role, that's a different question.
MonkeyMalarky 4y ago
There might be a slight difference between prayers in classrooms and books being available in a library for children to check out if interested. Unless you're suggesting that all material containing any religious content or characters also be excluded from libraries in the name of neutrality?
everforward 4y ago
I think there's some validity to this thought process. I'm of the opinion the books shouldn't be banned, but this point gives me pause. There's an obvious difference here via the 1st amendment, which doesn't regulate social issues, but that's more legal technicality than philosophy. My experience as a kid (after these crusades) was that religion wasn't forbidden as a topic, but that endorsement or derision of any particular religion was forbidden. E.g. it would be fine to ask what the difference in belief is between a Catholic and an Amish, but a teacher would probably refuse to answer if asked which one is better supported by historical fact. One of the history classes spent a week or two on the various common religions. If I'm recalling correctly, the school library had copies of at least the Bible, the Quran and a Hebrew Bible (I feel like there was a better term but I can't recall it). There wasn't an attempt to hide the information, the school just couldn't endorse a particular religion. Tolerance was generally encouraged to all religions (or lack thereof). This feels like it's going further than the religious issues. It's an attempt to suppress knowledge, rather than to suppress opinion.
feoren 4y ago
> there was a crusade against Christian prayer Bullshit. There was a backlash against forced Christian prayer, as there should be. > teachers here-and-they’re wanting to assert their belief system in the classroom Bullshit. Making a wide variety of books available to interested students is literally the opposite of asserting a specific belief system. > activist parents Bullshit. This is very clearly neo-fascist alt-right book-burners trying to bring about white Christian nationalism. Very clearly: they're not even trying to hide this fact. Any argument that does not acknowledge this is a bald-faced attempt to instate white Christian nationalism is not in good faith. > the question becomes should we keep schools neutral or not? Bullshit. This is a clear attempt to set the standard for "neutral" as "white Christian nationalist" and anything other than that as non-neutral. > my intellectually curious atheist self Green username, bad-faith argument filled with bullshit. Why do I get this feeling this statement is similar to "as a gay black man ..."
- spoils19 4y ago
  > Bullshit. There was a backlash against forced Christian prayer, as there should be. Need I remind you that the US is one nation _under God_? > Bullshit. Making a wide variety of books available to interested students is literally the opposite of asserting a specific belief system. It'll be quite "convenient" if certain books had more space on the shelves than others. > Green username, bad-faith argument filled with bullshit. Why do I get this feeling this statement is similar to "as a gay black man ..." Please make sure you're following the HackerNews commenting guidelines. :>
  - feoren 4y ago
    > Need I remind you that the US is one nation _under God_? I refused to recite that fascist bullshit in school, and "under God" was added by Dwight Eisenhower in 1954. I disagree that the US is "under God". What's your point? You're going to come to my house and wreck the place if I don't kneel for your God? What are you even talking about? > It'll be quite "convenient" if certain books had more space on the shelves than others. What are you talking about? Say what you mean. Otherwise it'll be quite "convenient" if your grandmother turns out to be a bicycle. > Please make sure you're following the HackerNews commenting guidelines. :> "Assume good faith" stops when strong evidence presented that the argument is in bad faith. I stated what that evidence was.
dragonwriter 4y ago
> “Back in my day…” there was a crusade against Christian prayer and what not. No, there wasn't. There has historically been litigation against forced or state-agent-led prayer, and that litigation was often by Christian (or Christian-adjacent; boundaries are disputed) groups.

nobody9999 4y ago

>Other schools [2] in the US are more explicit on change... ?> School of Education devoted to developing civically engaged children, youth, and adults for a diverse and inclusive society. Why is developing "civic engagement" among our population a bad thing? Why is a "diverse and inclusive" society a bad thing? Not being snarky here, I just really don't understand how reducing civic engagement and excluding those who are "different" are good things. Perhaps you could explain your reasoning around that?

mfer 4y ago
First, let me say that I'm not attempting to give my own opinion on the direction that folks should go in. I'm most interested in bringing awareness as to what's going on so we can have deeper understanding and discussion. With the school his is from, look at what their vision isn't. It's not to create well educated people who can excel at their jobs. Their vision isn't to create people who are self sustaining adults who can operate in society. Their vision is to get people civically engaged around certain forms of change. The specific forms of change are not agreed to as a culture in the US. This is an area where we don't have good in depth thoughtful conversations, either.
- nobody9999 4y ago
  >Their vision is to get people civically engaged around certain forms of change. >The specific forms of change are not agreed to as a culture in the US. This is an area where we don't have good in depth thoughtful conversations, either. That's not what you initially said, nor do I understand how "civic engagement" is ever a bad thing. In fact, we need lots more of it. You are applying ("The specific forms of change are not agreed to as a culture in the US") your trained-in prejudices as the right way, the only way. That's a little disturbing. I'd add, as far as creating civic engagement is concerned, that you should never, metaphorically (and literally) speaking, hand someone a gun unless you know where they're going to point it. I, and most reasonable humans, want more civic engagement from everyone. Including those with whom we disagree. Because that's how we make sure our society and government are working. Discouraging civic engagement for any reason is bad, IMHO. It's unfortunate that you don't come right out and say what you mean, rather than using inference and innuendo: You don't like what other folks want, so you want to ban it, or at least discredit those you believe disagree with you. At least that's my take on your comments. Please do correct me if I'm wrong.

mikrotikker 4y ago

That book Gender Queer is terrible though. A seriously mentally ill person who suffered horrible abuse from her parents should not be writing such vile content with such pornographic imagery for children. How it ever got approved as a children's book is beyond me. It is however a great tool for parents to see how utterly disturbed the books the schools are giving their kids are, and if they're smart pull them into homeschooling.

gaganyaan 4y ago
I just read it. Wtf are you on about? There's nothing vile in there, it's a frank memoir of growing up. You and Florida both need to chill the fuck out with this witch hunt.