4 ms·

To fill in some context... This isn't about Governor approval. This was approved by the legislature and signed into law by the governor. Not a mandate by them.

by mfer 4y ago

To fill in some context... This isn't about Governor approval. This was approved by the legislature and signed into law by the governor. Not a mandate by them. The context of all of this is teachers putting books in front of kids that their parents don't approve of. I'm not in Florida but I'll give you a local example to me that's come under debate. A book with sexually explicit material was recently pulled from an elementary school. Kids 10-ish and under. sex education doesn't come until the end of elementary school. If I understand it right, this was not an education book. There is debate over whether this should be in the school and there are parents, politicians, and teachers on both sides of this. What got Florida to this point is worth exploring and discussing. No matter what side you're on.

CydeWeys 4y ago
> I'm not in Florida but I'll give you a local example to me that's come under debate. A book with sexually explicit material was recently pulled from an elementary school. What book was it? I ask because the first real science fiction book that I ever read, that inspired a life-long love for the genre, and which I read under the age of ten, was Rendezvous With Rama, which did contain a sex scene. And the presence of said sex scene didn't traumatize me or anything; I mostly just didn't understand it. Certainly not worth preventing me from having access to that book in its entirety over!
- AlexandrB 4y ago
  Great question! Because books like Catcher in the Rye get flagged for sexual content all the time.
- mfer 4y ago
  Unfortunately, I don't remember the name of the book. It was one I was not familiar with. The discussion noted that the book discussed using "toys". They also noted that there was an add for buying sex toys as part of the book. These are elements that really caught my attention. I have a hard time seeing most parents in the US being ok with this material being put in front of kids who are 5-10 years old.
  - spacemadness 4y ago
    “I don’t really recall but it was some terrible thing like giving sex toys to kids but I don’t remember really. I can definitely see why they’re doing this though!”
  - crooked-v 4y ago
    So what you're saying is, rather than have actual data or even a single concrete anecdote, you're happy just passing along word-of-mouth gossip when we already know that the people pushing for these laws are happy outright lying about their intent.
    - yamtaddle 4y ago
      The thing about anecdotes about schools is that you actually can find examples of a lot of bad behavior—because there are lots and lots of schools and lots and lots of teachers and sometimes those teachers are malicious or are catastrophically stupid, just like any other group of people that large. But when you dig a little farther most of that stuff's usually handled just fine at the school or district level. There's very little justification for involving state or even county level government in addressing things like inappropriate lessons or content, because they do happen but are not an actual systemic problem because they're already dealt with by the existing, very-local systems.
      - CydeWeys 4y ago
        Just wanted to thank you for this astute point.
  - mrguyorama 4y ago
    Popular science magazine has it's back several pages full of ads for sketchy dick pills, "romantic couple" porn videos, and other sex services. My mother got really upset but I just wanted to read about the B2 bomber so she pretty quickly realized that it was a non-issue.
- mrguyorama 4y ago
  The hilarious part is that young teens will find pretty much anything arousing anyway. When I was that age, one of the books in the Ender's Game series involved a weird scene where someone attempts to essentially seduce Ender. You can bet I re-read that scene a hundred times. Or a scene in a harry potter book where a couple young teens talk about making out. If you want to prevent any "sexualization" content from reaching your young readers, you pretty much have to limit them to Go Dog Go.
miguelazo 4y ago
There are almost zero teachers on the side of this, and the parents who favor censorship are in the extreme minority, whipped into a frenzy by cynical politicians in a country whose media and political system is clearly broken.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
loudmax 4y ago
> A book with sexually explicit material This raises the question of what is material considered sexually explicit. Do you have the title and author of this book?
jeffbee 4y ago
If there was really widespread agreement that the book did not belong in the library, then it wouldn't have been there in the first place. What these laws do is enable tiny vocal minorities to wield censorship powers.
- mfer 4y ago
  > widespread agreement There isn't widespread agreement. That's how we got here. Parents are disagreeing with teachers as to what material they want in front of their kids. The book I referred to earlier described using sex toys and had an add to get them. This is in a library for kids aged 5-10ish. People were arguing in support of the book being in that library. Who gets to choose what's appropriate?
  - GordonS 4y ago
    If you're going to keep making such claims, you really need to name the book.
aqme28 4y ago
What's the example book? I doubt it's as black-and-white as you're making it sound. There are plenty of books with "sexually explicit material"* in them that are appropriate for children. * e.g. the book my mom made me read about how our bodies change during puberty.
aaroninsf 4y ago
While I'm sure at national scale it's fully possible to dredge up OH NO VERY SCARY EXAMPLES, the overwhelming impetus and application of laws like this is to prevent religious autocratic conservative parents' kids from learning the actual nature of the secular (i.e real) humanist world, most typically through canon and contemporary literature which does its job: illuminating the human condition, and the hypocrisy venality ignorance brutality and rigidity of people exactly like those who oppose such illumination. Been telling my friends who e.g. foolishly moved to Austin or Florida chasing the "nest Silicon Valley": if you intend to, or have, kids, GTFO now. The descent of Texas and Florida into autocratic christofascism continues and raising a child, especially a young woman, there, would be actual hell

by mfer 4y ago

CydeWeys 4y ago

> I'm not in Florida but I'll give you a local example to me that's come under debate. A book with sexually explicit material was recently pulled from an elementary school. What book was it? I ask because the first real science fiction book that I ever read, that inspired a life-long love for the genre, and which I read under the age of ten, was Rendezvous With Rama, which did contain a sex scene. And the presence of said sex scene didn't traumatize me or anything; I mostly just didn't understand it. Certainly not worth preventing me from having access to that book in its entirety over!

AlexandrB 4y ago
Great question! Because books like Catcher in the Rye get flagged for sexual content all the time.
mfer 4y ago
Unfortunately, I don't remember the name of the book. It was one I was not familiar with. The discussion noted that the book discussed using "toys". They also noted that there was an add for buying sex toys as part of the book. These are elements that really caught my attention. I have a hard time seeing most parents in the US being ok with this material being put in front of kids who are 5-10 years old.
- spacemadness 4y ago
  “I don’t really recall but it was some terrible thing like giving sex toys to kids but I don’t remember really. I can definitely see why they’re doing this though!”
- crooked-v 4y ago
  So what you're saying is, rather than have actual data or even a single concrete anecdote, you're happy just passing along word-of-mouth gossip when we already know that the people pushing for these laws are happy outright lying about their intent.
  - yamtaddle 4y ago
    The thing about anecdotes about schools is that you actually can find examples of a lot of bad behavior—because there are lots and lots of schools and lots and lots of teachers and sometimes those teachers are malicious or are catastrophically stupid, just like any other group of people that large. But when you dig a little farther most of that stuff's usually handled just fine at the school or district level. There's very little justification for involving state or even county level government in addressing things like inappropriate lessons or content, because they do happen but are not an actual systemic problem because they're already dealt with by the existing, very-local systems.
    - CydeWeys 4y ago
      Just wanted to thank you for this astute point.
- mrguyorama 4y ago
  Popular science magazine has it's back several pages full of ads for sketchy dick pills, "romantic couple" porn videos, and other sex services. My mother got really upset but I just wanted to read about the B2 bomber so she pretty quickly realized that it was a non-issue.
mrguyorama 4y ago
The hilarious part is that young teens will find pretty much anything arousing anyway. When I was that age, one of the books in the Ender's Game series involved a weird scene where someone attempts to essentially seduce Ender. You can bet I re-read that scene a hundred times. Or a scene in a harry potter book where a couple young teens talk about making out. If you want to prevent any "sexualization" content from reaching your young readers, you pretty much have to limit them to Go Dog Go.

miguelazo 4y ago

There are almost zero teachers on the side of this, and the parents who favor censorship are in the extreme minority, whipped into a frenzy by cynical politicians in a country whose media and political system is clearly broken.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

loudmax 4y ago

> A book with sexually explicit material This raises the question of what is material considered sexually explicit. Do you have the title and author of this book?

jeffbee 4y ago

If there was really widespread agreement that the book did not belong in the library, then it wouldn't have been there in the first place. What these laws do is enable tiny vocal minorities to wield censorship powers.

mfer 4y ago
> widespread agreement There isn't widespread agreement. That's how we got here. Parents are disagreeing with teachers as to what material they want in front of their kids. The book I referred to earlier described using sex toys and had an add to get them. This is in a library for kids aged 5-10ish. People were arguing in support of the book being in that library. Who gets to choose what's appropriate?
- GordonS 4y ago
  If you're going to keep making such claims, you really need to name the book.

aqme28 4y ago

What's the example book? I doubt it's as black-and-white as you're making it sound. There are plenty of books with "sexually explicit material"* in them that are appropriate for children. * e.g. the book my mom made me read about how our bodies change during puberty.

aaroninsf 4y ago

While I'm sure at national scale it's fully possible to dredge up OH NO VERY SCARY EXAMPLES, the overwhelming impetus and application of laws like this is to prevent religious autocratic conservative parents' kids from learning the actual nature of the secular (i.e real) humanist world, most typically through canon and contemporary literature which does its job: illuminating the human condition, and the hypocrisy venality ignorance brutality and rigidity of people exactly like those who oppose such illumination. Been telling my friends who e.g. foolishly moved to Austin or Florida chasing the "nest Silicon Valley": if you intend to, or have, kids, GTFO now. The descent of Texas and Florida into autocratic christofascism continues and raising a child, especially a young woman, there, would be actual hell