12 ms·

This article doesn't mention whether it prevents the cardiovascular depression that actually kills most people exposed to fentanyl. If the vaccine doesn't preve

This article doesn't mention whether it prevents the cardiovascular depression that actually kills most people exposed to fentanyl. If the vaccine doesn't prevent that, it's useless. A vaccine that makes fentanyl less "fun" doesn't do anything for the people who ingest it thinking that it's something entirely different.

mdanger007 4y ago
A vaccine doesn't work unless it helps the tiny fraction of fentenyl deaths who unintentnially take the drug? How about this: You're less likely to come in contact with the drug if there are fewer users getting high off it.
- D13Fd 4y ago
  Yeah but my understanding is that most of the overdosing are from people seeking something else. In some cases it’s akin to a contamination problem.
  - kjkjadksj 4y ago
    We are at the point in the fentanyl epidemic where most users are specifically seeking out fentanyl or fentanyl laced drugs.
    - factsarelolz 4y ago
      Because fentanyl is way cheaper by itself. Why mix in more expensive drugs? The issue is China, full stop.
      - kjkjadksj 4y ago
        Exactly, fentanyl is now cheaper than most other drugs and opiods. So many opioid users have just switched to fentanyl. Why pay extra for heroin? The issue is also the cartel in mexico, fentanyl is produced there too. https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/feared-illicit-fentanyl-now-drug-choice-many-opioids-users-rcna40418 https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/feared-illicit-fe...
        factsarelolz 4y ago
        I agree. Blows my mind that I was downvoted so hard on my factual comment. But it is HN.
    - amanaplanacanal 4y ago
      I suspect most people looking for cocaine or methamphetamine or mdma are not looking for fentanyl.
      - kjkjadksj 4y ago
        Maybe, but theres also a huge market for fentanyl specifically because its the cheapest opioid you can get your hands on. https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/feared-illicit-fentanyl-now-drug-choice-many-opioids-users-rcna40418 https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/feared-illicit-fe...
    - noptd 4y ago
      Citation needed.
      - kjkjadksj 4y ago
        Here you go! Plenty of similar articles out there if you search for this yourself. I’ve also seen people break up these pills and put into glass pipes to smoke at the train station. https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/feared-illicit-fentanyl-now-drug-choice-many-opioids-users-rcna40418 https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/feared-illicit-fe...
- adamsmith143 4y ago
  Is there some group of people who are taking fentanyl en masse intentionally? I know a few people who have died after taking what they thought were bars or ecstasy and died because it was laced with fentanyl. I know 0 who go out of their way to find and take fentanyl.
  - agentwiggles 4y ago
    Wildly anecdotal, this is like thirdhand info, so take with a bunch of salt. But I have heard before that heroin/opioid addicts have begun to deliberately seek fentanyl because it's cheaper and more potent. It makes at least some sense given the common narrative of the pipeline from painkiller addiction to heroin (i.e. it's the same relationship - people who are addicted to painkillers may transition to heroin because it's cheaper and more powerful).
    - KMag 4y ago
      I've heard it's cheaper, but the half-life is so short that just to keep the withdrawal symptoms at bay, addicts need to dose more often than if they're using heroine, oxycodone, etc.
  - KMag 4y ago
    Right. My understanding is that it's very common to have fake oxycodone or heroine that's fentanyl or carfentanyl, and the short half-life of fentanyl and carfentanyl means that addicts will get withdrawl symptoms in just a few hours. My understanding is that heroine and oxycodone have long enough half-lives that many people can hold down jobs and generally be pretty functional by taking small doses before work (and maybe mid-shift, not sure). My understanding is that it's nearly impossible to do something similar with fentanyl/carfentanyl. Though, I have little exposure to hard drug culture, and get most of my information from headlines.
  - denimnerd42 4y ago
    Yes people take fentanyl intentionally. The real heroin, the real opioid pills, and other forms of opioids have mostly dried up. Now we get fentanyl and fentanyl analogs, and other potent synthetic opioids that aren't well tracked. The reason is that it's extremely potent so it's easier to smuggle from China, Mexico, wherever it's being made. So now you get "pressies" [homemade pressed pills] which is diluted fentanyl. Everyone knows it's fentanyl. Everyone knows you can't get real heroin in the US anymore. They know these fake pills aren't real. Even worse, when the fentanyl dries up they start cutting it with xylazine and other bullshit that narcan doesn't even work on. Research areas such as Kensington and the blighted areas of Baltimore. There's videos on youtube showing just how many users are out on the streets. You can imagine how many more are still not down to that level yet. You can also look at the opioid and drug subreddits. It's all fent and everyone wishes they could get their impure crappy brown heroin back.
- DiabloD3 4y ago
  Let's go another way with this: You are extremely unlikely to ever come across a fentanyl user, even if you work for law enforcement, even if you're a LEO in a major metro. 10x people died of heart attacks than any opioid, not only fentenyl, over the past few years. Almost as many people died of cancer as heart attacks, and half as many people died of COVID as cancer. Obviously, you can't equate research with other research; research and the drive to do research as a researcher is not a fungible item, but if we're spending tax payer money on it, why not a vaccine for foods that are low in fat, low in sodium, low in nutrition, and high in simple and processed carbs? That could save 700k+ lives a year in the US, more worldwide; and given that is also linked to cancer as the primary driver of it outside of smoking and drinking, another 600k+.
  - spywaregorilla 4y ago
    > Let's go another way with this: You are extremely unlikely to ever come across a fentanyl user, even if you work for law enforcement, even if you're a LEO in a major metro. I'm gonna need a citation for that outrageous claim > Obviously, you can't equate research with other research; research and the drive to do research as a researcher is not a fungible item, but if we're spending tax payer money on it, why not a vaccine for foods that are low in fat, low in sodium, low in nutrition, and high in simple and processed carbs? That could save 700k+ lives a year in the US, more worldwide; and given that is also linked to cancer as the primary driver of it outside of smoking and drinking, another 600k+. Because that is nonsense. We don't have that technology.
    - rrdharan 4y ago
      > Because that is nonsense. We don’t have that technology. https://www.theringer.com/2023/1/20/23562871/america-isnt-ready-for-weight-loss-drug-revolution-medication-health-care-exercise-ozempic https://www.theringer.com/2023/1/20/23562871/america-isnt-re...
      - spywaregorilla 4y ago
        That is nothing like a "vaccine for junk food"
- ARandomerDude 4y ago
  And how do you propose we get all the users vaccinated with the fentanyl jab? Another round of mass vaccinations? Make all the kids in school do it? Forced vaccinations for anyone in jail or rehab? Honestly, all of those seem like bad ideas.
  - KMag 4y ago
    If the government subscribed wholly to utilitarian ethics, it's arguable that it would be an ethical imperative to contaminate the fentanyl supply with vaccine. I don't agree, and think it's immoral and unethical to subject citizens to such medical treatment without informed consent. However, under some ethical systems, the improvement in aggregate health makes in an ethical necessity.
    - freedomben 4y ago
      The US government has actually done similar things before, such as poisoning bootlegged alcohol with methanol. It's good that you bring it up because at some point somebody in power will.
      - mdanger007 4y ago
        Drug treatment is a common alternative to jail time. Clean drug tests are often a condition of bail and parole.
  - Ekaros 4y ago
    Didn't we already do it? Ban people from working if they don't take it, maybe take away any benefits too. Don't allow them to public places?
    - factsarelolz 4y ago
      > Ban people from working if they don't take it, maybe take away any benefits too. Don't allow them to public places? Over a one's own choice to not have a medical procedure? Should we do the same to those whom have abortions? Who gets to make a choice on what medical procedures a population should have? Why is it not the individuals decision?

mdanger007 4y ago

A vaccine doesn't work unless it helps the tiny fraction of fentenyl deaths who unintentnially take the drug? How about this: You're less likely to come in contact with the drug if there are fewer users getting high off it.

D13Fd 4y ago
Yeah but my understanding is that most of the overdosing are from people seeking something else. In some cases it’s akin to a contamination problem.
- kjkjadksj 4y ago
  We are at the point in the fentanyl epidemic where most users are specifically seeking out fentanyl or fentanyl laced drugs.
  - factsarelolz 4y ago
    Because fentanyl is way cheaper by itself. Why mix in more expensive drugs? The issue is China, full stop.
    - kjkjadksj 4y ago
      Exactly, fentanyl is now cheaper than most other drugs and opiods. So many opioid users have just switched to fentanyl. Why pay extra for heroin? The issue is also the cartel in mexico, fentanyl is produced there too. https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/feared-illicit-fentanyl-now-drug-choice-many-opioids-users-rcna40418 https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/feared-illicit-fe...
      - factsarelolz 4y ago
        I agree. Blows my mind that I was downvoted so hard on my factual comment. But it is HN.
  - amanaplanacanal 4y ago
    I suspect most people looking for cocaine or methamphetamine or mdma are not looking for fentanyl.
    - kjkjadksj 4y ago
      Maybe, but theres also a huge market for fentanyl specifically because its the cheapest opioid you can get your hands on. https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/feared-illicit-fentanyl-now-drug-choice-many-opioids-users-rcna40418 https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/feared-illicit-fe...
  - noptd 4y ago
    Citation needed.
    - kjkjadksj 4y ago
      Here you go! Plenty of similar articles out there if you search for this yourself. I’ve also seen people break up these pills and put into glass pipes to smoke at the train station. https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/feared-illicit-fentanyl-now-drug-choice-many-opioids-users-rcna40418 https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/feared-illicit-fe...
adamsmith143 4y ago
Is there some group of people who are taking fentanyl en masse intentionally? I know a few people who have died after taking what they thought were bars or ecstasy and died because it was laced with fentanyl. I know 0 who go out of their way to find and take fentanyl.
- agentwiggles 4y ago
  Wildly anecdotal, this is like thirdhand info, so take with a bunch of salt. But I have heard before that heroin/opioid addicts have begun to deliberately seek fentanyl because it's cheaper and more potent. It makes at least some sense given the common narrative of the pipeline from painkiller addiction to heroin (i.e. it's the same relationship - people who are addicted to painkillers may transition to heroin because it's cheaper and more powerful).
  - KMag 4y ago
    I've heard it's cheaper, but the half-life is so short that just to keep the withdrawal symptoms at bay, addicts need to dose more often than if they're using heroine, oxycodone, etc.
- KMag 4y ago
  Right. My understanding is that it's very common to have fake oxycodone or heroine that's fentanyl or carfentanyl, and the short half-life of fentanyl and carfentanyl means that addicts will get withdrawl symptoms in just a few hours. My understanding is that heroine and oxycodone have long enough half-lives that many people can hold down jobs and generally be pretty functional by taking small doses before work (and maybe mid-shift, not sure). My understanding is that it's nearly impossible to do something similar with fentanyl/carfentanyl. Though, I have little exposure to hard drug culture, and get most of my information from headlines.
- denimnerd42 4y ago
  Yes people take fentanyl intentionally. The real heroin, the real opioid pills, and other forms of opioids have mostly dried up. Now we get fentanyl and fentanyl analogs, and other potent synthetic opioids that aren't well tracked. The reason is that it's extremely potent so it's easier to smuggle from China, Mexico, wherever it's being made. So now you get "pressies" [homemade pressed pills] which is diluted fentanyl. Everyone knows it's fentanyl. Everyone knows you can't get real heroin in the US anymore. They know these fake pills aren't real. Even worse, when the fentanyl dries up they start cutting it with xylazine and other bullshit that narcan doesn't even work on. Research areas such as Kensington and the blighted areas of Baltimore. There's videos on youtube showing just how many users are out on the streets. You can imagine how many more are still not down to that level yet. You can also look at the opioid and drug subreddits. It's all fent and everyone wishes they could get their impure crappy brown heroin back.
DiabloD3 4y ago
Let's go another way with this: You are extremely unlikely to ever come across a fentanyl user, even if you work for law enforcement, even if you're a LEO in a major metro. 10x people died of heart attacks than any opioid, not only fentenyl, over the past few years. Almost as many people died of cancer as heart attacks, and half as many people died of COVID as cancer. Obviously, you can't equate research with other research; research and the drive to do research as a researcher is not a fungible item, but if we're spending tax payer money on it, why not a vaccine for foods that are low in fat, low in sodium, low in nutrition, and high in simple and processed carbs? That could save 700k+ lives a year in the US, more worldwide; and given that is also linked to cancer as the primary driver of it outside of smoking and drinking, another 600k+.
- spywaregorilla 4y ago
  > Let's go another way with this: You are extremely unlikely to ever come across a fentanyl user, even if you work for law enforcement, even if you're a LEO in a major metro. I'm gonna need a citation for that outrageous claim > Obviously, you can't equate research with other research; research and the drive to do research as a researcher is not a fungible item, but if we're spending tax payer money on it, why not a vaccine for foods that are low in fat, low in sodium, low in nutrition, and high in simple and processed carbs? That could save 700k+ lives a year in the US, more worldwide; and given that is also linked to cancer as the primary driver of it outside of smoking and drinking, another 600k+. Because that is nonsense. We don't have that technology.
  - rrdharan 4y ago
    > Because that is nonsense. We don’t have that technology. https://www.theringer.com/2023/1/20/23562871/america-isnt-ready-for-weight-loss-drug-revolution-medication-health-care-exercise-ozempic https://www.theringer.com/2023/1/20/23562871/america-isnt-re...
    - spywaregorilla 4y ago
      That is nothing like a "vaccine for junk food"
ARandomerDude 4y ago
And how do you propose we get all the users vaccinated with the fentanyl jab? Another round of mass vaccinations? Make all the kids in school do it? Forced vaccinations for anyone in jail or rehab? Honestly, all of those seem like bad ideas.
- KMag 4y ago
  If the government subscribed wholly to utilitarian ethics, it's arguable that it would be an ethical imperative to contaminate the fentanyl supply with vaccine. I don't agree, and think it's immoral and unethical to subject citizens to such medical treatment without informed consent. However, under some ethical systems, the improvement in aggregate health makes in an ethical necessity.
  - freedomben 4y ago
    The US government has actually done similar things before, such as poisoning bootlegged alcohol with methanol. It's good that you bring it up because at some point somebody in power will.
    - mdanger007 4y ago
      Drug treatment is a common alternative to jail time. Clean drug tests are often a condition of bail and parole.
- Ekaros 4y ago
  Didn't we already do it? Ban people from working if they don't take it, maybe take away any benefits too. Don't allow them to public places?
  - factsarelolz 4y ago
    > Ban people from working if they don't take it, maybe take away any benefits too. Don't allow them to public places? Over a one's own choice to not have a medical procedure? Should we do the same to those whom have abortions? Who gets to make a choice on what medical procedures a population should have? Why is it not the individuals decision?