4 ms·

This seems like a very puritanical viewpoint. So much so, that it's a little peculiar and almost feels like a caricature. A life of avoidance does not help an A

by z3c0 4y ago

This seems like a very puritanical viewpoint. So much so, that it's a little peculiar and almost feels like a caricature. A life of avoidance does not help an ADHD brain, and the idea that your brain wants stuff to do is not the case at all. You will burn out very quickly going down that path. You'll get much further just taking a few times a day to slow your thoughts via meditation or engaging in a passive activity that allows constructive mind-wandering. Hell, I'd even recommend medicating over locking your whole life down and living in fear of your own brain.

hollerith 4y ago
I think some people need to go very puritanical to survive and to succeed in the modern world with its almost-constant easy access to entertainments, distractions and mental stimulations. I'm probably one of them. And the meds I have tried typically prescribed for ADHD have done more harm than good. Specifically I've tried Ritalin, Adderal and modafinil. Actually that is not true: modafinil did more good than harm, and the other 2 weren't significantly harmful (because I was smart enough to stop taking them as soon as I noticed they didn't help on net). But the point is that modafinil didn't help me with the problem we are discussing here. (Modafinil reduces the amount of REM sleep I get, even if I take it in the morning, and my trying modafinil is what caused me to notice that reducing my REM sleep would be a good idea, which motivated me to find a better non-drug way to reduce REM sleep, after which I had no use for modafinil.)
- z3c0 4y ago
  I'm not denying that some people have a harder time than others, but to restrict an ADHD brain is not unlike repressing a child. The "distractions" are only distractions to an orderly system - it does not imply that your brain is inherently disorderly, only that it doesn't mesh with the order defined by our society. Learning to reconcile the gap between your natural strengths as an ADHD individual and those needed to make it in the modern world will work far better than trying to shoehorn yourself into a set of rules that your brain refuses to comply with. Living without fulfillment will only further muddy the ADHD mind. Medicine is a shortcut to that, but as you've already noted, it's a huge undertaking of trial-and-error, and may only amount to a transitory solution. Nonetheless, if it carries you forward even a little, it's a worthwhile endeavor.
  - hollerith 4y ago
    You describe it as "living without fulfillment", but if the average internet-connect white-collar Western person stopped all consumption of video entertainment, news and non goal-direct use of the web and the smartphone, then after adjustment period of a month or so, I suspect that the remaining pleasures in their lives would become more fulfilling with the result that their average level of fulfillment would be about the same as it currently is. I think that that is just how the human motivational system works: there is a set point, and if for example I get hit by a car and lose the use of my legs, my life gets much suckier for a while, but a month or so after I have settled in to being paralyzed (i.e., I have gained enough experience with it to have a practical understanding or knowledge-grounded-in-lived-experience of all the significant new constraints on my life) I will be about as happy or as miserable as I am now. Would you agree with my theory of the set point? If so, what I am missing? I don't see anything wrong or irrational about the manner of living described in the original comment that you disagreed with, namely, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34487431 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34487431
    - z3c0 4y ago
      > stopped all consumption of video entertainment, news and non goal-direct use of the web and the smartphone, then after adjustment period of a month or so, I suspect that the remaining pleasures in their lives would become more fulfilling with the result that their average level of fulfillment would be about the same as it currently is. I wholly agree with this, as I've done it myself, but nothing about this requires treating oneself like they are "born in sin". This whole idea of "I'm a broken person so I must live a curtailed life" is lifted straight from Puritan ideals. In fact, a lot of American culture carries the tinge of Puritanism still, as if it's the only solution against the Wests' hedonistic level of distractions. The reality is that a bit of self-examination can help one monitor the ebb and flow of their attention, and maximize it for effectiveness. Putting guard rails on every corner of your life will likewise limit the positive elements of having a wandering mind. As a good autistic friend of mine put it: "my disability is my superpower". He doesn't hide away in his room out of fear that his poor social skills will offend someone.
ryloric 4y ago
Unless you have it you don't know what it feels like. This sort of generic advice is useless when you're awake in bed at 8:30 AM, still trying to sleep from last night but you can't because you can't physically stop yourself from doom scrolling on your phone. The only thing that really works is an unbreakable commitment device, make it so that the only thing you can do in any given situation is the right thing.
- z3c0 4y ago
  I do have it, so the rest of your highly presumptive comment became moot after the first sentence.
  - ryloric 4y ago
    Everyone who doesn't have it talks about it more or less like the way you did, "oh... why don't they just learn to control it like me instead of having all these rules". My comment is highly presumptive because your comment was extremely stereotypical of people who make light of it, maybe stop using words like 'puritanical' when describing what works for other people. Your impairments might be light to non-existent, doesn't mean mine are.
    - z3c0 4y ago
      Once again, you're being presumptive. I have a rather severe case of ADHD co-morbid with PTSD, and nothing that I've stated as a solution is easy. If anything, it requires more discipline than simply cutting out temptations. You will need to learn to recognize when "it's time" and step away to re-calibrate. This requires knowing oneself and being transparent about your problems with others. The routes described prior are extremely puritanical, and if you don't see that, I am sorry that you are stuck wielding such repressive methods. They will be more of a detriment in the long run, as you realize that they do nothing to address your thought patterns. I am speaking from experience, as that doesn't seem to have been made clear.
      - Zircom 4y ago
BatteryMountain 4y ago
Not puritanical-intended at all. The point being, remove all the stuff from your environment that hammers the brain 24/7, become a bit calmer, then use your newly freed minutes for intentional time-bound actions. The way we all live is not normal to begin with.
- z3c0 4y ago
  I agree with your point here, but your methodology seems very strict. Almost to the point of self-defeat, because turning to a distraction and finding it isn't there isn't improved attention, only distraction with more steps. I do hope you find your balance, and whatever gets you there is your own, but having grown up under the same approach you're describing, I can attest to the likelihood of an eventual collapse.
  - hollerith 4y ago
    >having grown up under the same approach you're describing, I can attest to the likelihood of an eventual collapse. These words are what got me finally (after having read the other 7 comments by you in this thread) to understand the reason for your participation in this discussion -- what you are driving at. Thank you.

by z3c0 4y ago

hollerith 4y ago

I think some people need to go very puritanical to survive and to succeed in the modern world with its almost-constant easy access to entertainments, distractions and mental stimulations. I'm probably one of them. And the meds I have tried typically prescribed for ADHD have done more harm than good. Specifically I've tried Ritalin, Adderal and modafinil. Actually that is not true: modafinil did more good than harm, and the other 2 weren't significantly harmful (because I was smart enough to stop taking them as soon as I noticed they didn't help on net). But the point is that modafinil didn't help me with the problem we are discussing here. (Modafinil reduces the amount of REM sleep I get, even if I take it in the morning, and my trying modafinil is what caused me to notice that reducing my REM sleep would be a good idea, which motivated me to find a better non-drug way to reduce REM sleep, after which I had no use for modafinil.)

z3c0 4y ago
I'm not denying that some people have a harder time than others, but to restrict an ADHD brain is not unlike repressing a child. The "distractions" are only distractions to an orderly system - it does not imply that your brain is inherently disorderly, only that it doesn't mesh with the order defined by our society. Learning to reconcile the gap between your natural strengths as an ADHD individual and those needed to make it in the modern world will work far better than trying to shoehorn yourself into a set of rules that your brain refuses to comply with. Living without fulfillment will only further muddy the ADHD mind. Medicine is a shortcut to that, but as you've already noted, it's a huge undertaking of trial-and-error, and may only amount to a transitory solution. Nonetheless, if it carries you forward even a little, it's a worthwhile endeavor.
- hollerith 4y ago
  You describe it as "living without fulfillment", but if the average internet-connect white-collar Western person stopped all consumption of video entertainment, news and non goal-direct use of the web and the smartphone, then after adjustment period of a month or so, I suspect that the remaining pleasures in their lives would become more fulfilling with the result that their average level of fulfillment would be about the same as it currently is. I think that that is just how the human motivational system works: there is a set point, and if for example I get hit by a car and lose the use of my legs, my life gets much suckier for a while, but a month or so after I have settled in to being paralyzed (i.e., I have gained enough experience with it to have a practical understanding or knowledge-grounded-in-lived-experience of all the significant new constraints on my life) I will be about as happy or as miserable as I am now. Would you agree with my theory of the set point? If so, what I am missing? I don't see anything wrong or irrational about the manner of living described in the original comment that you disagreed with, namely, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34487431 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34487431
  - z3c0 4y ago
    > stopped all consumption of video entertainment, news and non goal-direct use of the web and the smartphone, then after adjustment period of a month or so, I suspect that the remaining pleasures in their lives would become more fulfilling with the result that their average level of fulfillment would be about the same as it currently is. I wholly agree with this, as I've done it myself, but nothing about this requires treating oneself like they are "born in sin". This whole idea of "I'm a broken person so I must live a curtailed life" is lifted straight from Puritan ideals. In fact, a lot of American culture carries the tinge of Puritanism still, as if it's the only solution against the Wests' hedonistic level of distractions. The reality is that a bit of self-examination can help one monitor the ebb and flow of their attention, and maximize it for effectiveness. Putting guard rails on every corner of your life will likewise limit the positive elements of having a wandering mind. As a good autistic friend of mine put it: "my disability is my superpower". He doesn't hide away in his room out of fear that his poor social skills will offend someone.

ryloric 4y ago

Unless you have it you don't know what it feels like. This sort of generic advice is useless when you're awake in bed at 8:30 AM, still trying to sleep from last night but you can't because you can't physically stop yourself from doom scrolling on your phone. The only thing that really works is an unbreakable commitment device, make it so that the only thing you can do in any given situation is the right thing.

z3c0 4y ago
I do have it, so the rest of your highly presumptive comment became moot after the first sentence.
- ryloric 4y ago
  Everyone who doesn't have it talks about it more or less like the way you did, "oh... why don't they just learn to control it like me instead of having all these rules". My comment is highly presumptive because your comment was extremely stereotypical of people who make light of it, maybe stop using words like 'puritanical' when describing what works for other people. Your impairments might be light to non-existent, doesn't mean mine are.
  - z3c0 4y ago
    Once again, you're being presumptive. I have a rather severe case of ADHD co-morbid with PTSD, and nothing that I've stated as a solution is easy. If anything, it requires more discipline than simply cutting out temptations. You will need to learn to recognize when "it's time" and step away to re-calibrate. This requires knowing oneself and being transparent about your problems with others. The routes described prior are extremely puritanical, and if you don't see that, I am sorry that you are stuck wielding such repressive methods. They will be more of a detriment in the long run, as you realize that they do nothing to address your thought patterns. I am speaking from experience, as that doesn't seem to have been made clear.
    - Zircom 4y ago

BatteryMountain 4y ago

Not puritanical-intended at all. The point being, remove all the stuff from your environment that hammers the brain 24/7, become a bit calmer, then use your newly freed minutes for intentional time-bound actions. The way we all live is not normal to begin with.

z3c0 4y ago
I agree with your point here, but your methodology seems very strict. Almost to the point of self-defeat, because turning to a distraction and finding it isn't there isn't improved attention, only distraction with more steps. I do hope you find your balance, and whatever gets you there is your own, but having grown up under the same approach you're describing, I can attest to the likelihood of an eventual collapse.
- hollerith 4y ago
  >having grown up under the same approach you're describing, I can attest to the likelihood of an eventual collapse. These words are what got me finally (after having read the other 7 comments by you in this thread) to understand the reason for your participation in this discussion -- what you are driving at. Thank you.