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> They're a car company committed to keeping the internal combustion engine. A vehicle running on hydrogen isn't an ICE. These are fuel cells. https://en.wik

by shagie 4y ago

> They're a car company committed to keeping the internal combustion engine. A vehicle running on hydrogen isn't an ICE. These are fuel cells. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Mirai https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Mirai This is an electric vehicle which generates power through hydrogen fuel cells rather than storing it as electrical energy in a battery (though it has a battery too). > Toyota's latest generation hybrid components were used extensively in the fuel cell powertrain, including the electric motor, power control and main battery. The electric traction motor delivers 113 kilowatts (152 hp; 154 PS) and 335 N⋅m (247 lbf⋅ft) of torque. The Mirai has a 245V (1.6 kWh) sealed nickel-metal hydride (NiMH) traction rechargeable battery pack, similar to the one used in the Camry hybrid. A question for Japan is "how do you store and refuel a car?" With a hydrogen station, it's a lot like a regular gas station in terms of space, process and time spent. They don't quite have the space for making large charging stations ( e.g. https://electrek.co/2022/05/19/tesla-building-new-worlds-largest-supercharger-station-mojave-desert/ https://electrek.co/2022/05/19/tesla-building-new-worlds-lar... ) which take longer and in turn require more land per car. There's also the "charging at home isn't as viable". https://www.google.com/maps/@35.1913767,138.6480478,3a,75y,356.33h,86.12t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sypSo5_q8q471bP_HkTwBDA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.com/maps/@35.1913767,138.6480478,3a,75y,3... or https://www.google.com/maps/@35.1913767,138.6480478,3a,75y,356.33h,86.12t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sypSo5_q8q471bP_HkTwBDA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.com/maps/@35.1913767,138.6480478,3a,75y,3... or https://www.google.com/maps/@35.1888588,138.697268,14z https://www.google.com/maps/@35.1888588,138.697268,14z

cameldrv 4y ago
You can make a Hydrogen ICE. BMW even leased 100 of them about 15 years ago. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_Hydrogen_7 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_Hydrogen_7
- gruez 4y ago
  Right, but if they're essentially incompatible with fossil fuel ICEs, what relevance is there to this conversation? The only thing that binds them is that they combust, but there's no clear reason why fossil fuel companies would favor one technology just because it involves combustion.
  - numpad0 4y ago
    They are compatible and relevant, GH2 can be fed to a gasoline ICE through a carburetor with minimal changes. New productions of existing ICE models therefore can be converted into a Hydrogen variant much easier, without redesigning the platform, or having to burn bridges with ICE and transmission factories.
    - shagie 4y ago
      ... while storing a tank of atmospheric pressure liquid H2 such that you can't store it in an enclosed space and will be nearly empty if you don't run it for 17 hours and has a range of 120 miles.
- shagie 4y ago
  There are a few issues with that car. https://youtu.be/AouW9_jyZck https://youtu.be/AouW9_jyZck On the backdrop of the first thing - the part that caught my eye was "Liquid H2 Tank" which... well... yea. That's a different approach than a hydrogen fuel cell. I'll also note that is a German car company and not Toyota (or other Japanese car company).
zogwarg 4y ago
Their main approach to Hydrogen might be fuel-cell, but they have had one-off sports cars with ICE using Hydrogen. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hydrogen_internal_combustion_engine_vehicles#Toyota https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hydrogen_internal_comb... I wouldn't completely discount the idea of them pivoting from the fuel-cell in the face of ever-stronger competition from other types electrical generation components.
TheRealPomax 4y ago
On a technical note, it's still an ICE. And Toyota's absolutely trying to show that it can actually be pretty much the same ICE but reinforced to deal with the much higher pressures from having to work with compressed hydrogen. But, while there is still internal combustion happening the major difference is that a hydrogen ICE produces heat and mostly water, rather than heat and mostly CO2 (). You just can't go as far on hydrogen mostly because the amount of dead weight required for hydrogen is so much higher than for fossil or electric. ) With the usual caveat that of the hydrogen product itself is currently not green, but as always, putting all the pollution in one spot, at scale, means far less pollution per car than if every car's running its own fossil furnace
- shagie 4y ago
  For Toyota Mirai - the https://www.toyota.com/mirai/ https://www.toyota.com/mirai/ Is it an internal combustion engine? https://youtu.be/qWMqZgiFhQY https://youtu.be/qWMqZgiFhQY This isn't a one off "hey we can do it" as a proof of concept for a race but an actual production car that you can buy. > You just can't go as far on hydrogen mostly because the amount of dead weight required for hydrogen is so much higher than for fossil or electric. To which https://www.toyota.com/mirai/2023/mirai-features/performance/ https://www.toyota.com/mirai/2023/mirai-features/performance... > Up to 402-Mile Range > When fully fueled with hydrogen, the 2023 Mirai XLE has an impressive manufacturer-estimated 402-mile driving range rating * and the 2023 Mirai Limited has a 357-mile driving range rating.

by shagie 4y ago

cameldrv 4y ago

You can make a Hydrogen ICE. BMW even leased 100 of them about 15 years ago. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_Hydrogen_7 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_Hydrogen_7

gruez 4y ago
Right, but if they're essentially incompatible with fossil fuel ICEs, what relevance is there to this conversation? The only thing that binds them is that they combust, but there's no clear reason why fossil fuel companies would favor one technology just because it involves combustion.
- numpad0 4y ago
  They are compatible and relevant, GH2 can be fed to a gasoline ICE through a carburetor with minimal changes. New productions of existing ICE models therefore can be converted into a Hydrogen variant much easier, without redesigning the platform, or having to burn bridges with ICE and transmission factories.
  - shagie 4y ago
    ... while storing a tank of atmospheric pressure liquid H2 such that you can't store it in an enclosed space and will be nearly empty if you don't run it for 17 hours and has a range of 120 miles.
shagie 4y ago
There are a few issues with that car. https://youtu.be/AouW9_jyZck https://youtu.be/AouW9_jyZck On the backdrop of the first thing - the part that caught my eye was "Liquid H2 Tank" which... well... yea. That's a different approach than a hydrogen fuel cell. I'll also note that is a German car company and not Toyota (or other Japanese car company).

zogwarg 4y ago

Their main approach to Hydrogen might be fuel-cell, but they have had one-off sports cars with ICE using Hydrogen. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hydrogen_internal_combustion_engine_vehicles#Toyota https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hydrogen_internal_comb... I wouldn't completely discount the idea of them pivoting from the fuel-cell in the face of ever-stronger competition from other types electrical generation components.

TheRealPomax 4y ago

On a technical note, it's still an ICE. And Toyota's absolutely trying to show that it can actually be pretty much the same ICE but reinforced to deal with the much higher pressures from having to work with compressed hydrogen. But, while there is still internal combustion happening the major difference is that a hydrogen ICE produces heat and mostly water, rather than heat and mostly CO2 (). You just can't go as far on hydrogen mostly because the amount of dead weight required for hydrogen is so much higher than for fossil or electric. ) With the usual caveat that of the hydrogen product itself is currently not green, but as always, putting all the pollution in one spot, at scale, means far less pollution per car than if every car's running its own fossil furnace

shagie 4y ago
For Toyota Mirai - the https://www.toyota.com/mirai/ https://www.toyota.com/mirai/ Is it an internal combustion engine? https://youtu.be/qWMqZgiFhQY https://youtu.be/qWMqZgiFhQY This isn't a one off "hey we can do it" as a proof of concept for a race but an actual production car that you can buy. > You just can't go as far on hydrogen mostly because the amount of dead weight required for hydrogen is so much higher than for fossil or electric. To which https://www.toyota.com/mirai/2023/mirai-features/performance/ https://www.toyota.com/mirai/2023/mirai-features/performance... > Up to 402-Mile Range > When fully fueled with hydrogen, the 2023 Mirai XLE has an impressive manufacturer-estimated 402-mile driving range rating * and the 2023 Mirai Limited has a 357-mile driving range rating.