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For example, Toyota makes good reliable cars, and saw massive success with the Prius because it was the only good alternative to a full internal combustion engi

For example, Toyota makes good reliable cars, and saw massive success with the Prius because it was the only good alternative to a full internal combustion engine. Now, years after that success, Toyota has only a very limited selection of fully electric plug in vehicles, and all their competitors are a decade in front of them because they continue to chase some pipe dream of hydrogen, is just disappointing.

rr808 4y ago
RAV4 Prime is awesome and huge wait list. PHEV is a great solution, it doesn't require these huge heavy batteries.
- yuppie_scum 4y ago
  But it does require hauling around an engine, transmission, gas tank, etc that you aren’t using half the time and require periodic service. The question really is, does adding that weight and complexity offset the weight and cost of moar battery? Especially as the charging infrastructure continues to improve in more populated regions?
  - rr808 4y ago
    Toyota RAV4 ICE weighs 3450 lbs, the RAV4 Prime weighs 4,250 lbs., and a Tesla Model Y long range is 4,416 lbs. Maybe ICE is best for the environment. :)
makeitdouble 4y ago
I'm curious how far ahead are Toyota's competitors. For instance, how many more EVs are they selling than the Toyota hybrid plugins ? (and I mean that not just in the US or Norway, but globally) To my knowledge the EV field is still a very small and restricted market, and the makers are all about the same advancement technology wise. I mean, Tesla for instance sources its batteries from Panasonic, which isn't much more advanced than Toyota I think. [edit] Panasonic is a Toyota partner in battery development https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/corporate/31477926.html https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/corporate/31477926.html
- hnav 4y ago
  They’re capable of building electric drivetrains, batteries are sourced from suppliers, IMO if they decided to mass produce and sell an EV lineup it’d probably take less than 5 years to hit full stride.
- jeffbee 4y ago
  I think this is the right way to look at it. How many cumulative tons of batteries has Toyota shipped to end customers and for how many years have those cars been on the road? This is proportional to the amount of fossil fuel burning foregone. That's a benefit. Toyota has shipped 20 million hybrids over 25 years. Tesla has shipped 3 million EVs, mostly in the past few years. Which strategy has cumulatively avoided more GHG emissions?
freetime2 4y ago
> and all their competitors are a decade in front of them This feels overly pessimistic to me. I feel like just a couple of years ago people were saying that Tesla was a decade ahead of "legacy" automakers. Fast forward a couple of years and there are lots of great EVs available from a number of legacy automakers, and Tesla's stock is down almost 70% from its peak in Nov 2021. Ford even beat Tesla to market with a compelling pickup. A lot can change in a few short years. Toyota still hasn't released a compelling EV, and their Mirai looks dubious at best. But they are putting hybrid engines into more and more models, and I think there will continue to be a strong demand for HEVs and PHEVs for years to come, until prices come down on EVs. And of course demand for ICE vehicles is still strong, too.
- acdha 4y ago
  > I feel like just a couple of years ago people were saying that Tesla was a decade ahead of "legacy" automakers. I saw a fair amount of that but it seemed to be more a reflection of Musk’s success at building an online fan club than sober analysis. The car people I know were bearish, noting that electric cars are relatively easy to build. The outlier was FSD, which would have been much harder to match if it hadn’t been at least a decade premature.

rr808 4y ago

RAV4 Prime is awesome and huge wait list. PHEV is a great solution, it doesn't require these huge heavy batteries.

yuppie_scum 4y ago
But it does require hauling around an engine, transmission, gas tank, etc that you aren’t using half the time and require periodic service. The question really is, does adding that weight and complexity offset the weight and cost of moar battery? Especially as the charging infrastructure continues to improve in more populated regions?
- rr808 4y ago
  Toyota RAV4 ICE weighs 3450 lbs, the RAV4 Prime weighs 4,250 lbs., and a Tesla Model Y long range is 4,416 lbs. Maybe ICE is best for the environment. :)

makeitdouble 4y ago

I'm curious how far ahead are Toyota's competitors. For instance, how many more EVs are they selling than the Toyota hybrid plugins ? (and I mean that not just in the US or Norway, but globally) To my knowledge the EV field is still a very small and restricted market, and the makers are all about the same advancement technology wise. I mean, Tesla for instance sources its batteries from Panasonic, which isn't much more advanced than Toyota I think. [edit] Panasonic is a Toyota partner in battery development https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/corporate/31477926.html https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/corporate/31477926.html

hnav 4y ago
They’re capable of building electric drivetrains, batteries are sourced from suppliers, IMO if they decided to mass produce and sell an EV lineup it’d probably take less than 5 years to hit full stride.
jeffbee 4y ago
I think this is the right way to look at it. How many cumulative tons of batteries has Toyota shipped to end customers and for how many years have those cars been on the road? This is proportional to the amount of fossil fuel burning foregone. That's a benefit. Toyota has shipped 20 million hybrids over 25 years. Tesla has shipped 3 million EVs, mostly in the past few years. Which strategy has cumulatively avoided more GHG emissions?

freetime2 4y ago

> and all their competitors are a decade in front of them This feels overly pessimistic to me. I feel like just a couple of years ago people were saying that Tesla was a decade ahead of "legacy" automakers. Fast forward a couple of years and there are lots of great EVs available from a number of legacy automakers, and Tesla's stock is down almost 70% from its peak in Nov 2021. Ford even beat Tesla to market with a compelling pickup. A lot can change in a few short years. Toyota still hasn't released a compelling EV, and their Mirai looks dubious at best. But they are putting hybrid engines into more and more models, and I think there will continue to be a strong demand for HEVs and PHEVs for years to come, until prices come down on EVs. And of course demand for ICE vehicles is still strong, too.

acdha 4y ago
> I feel like just a couple of years ago people were saying that Tesla was a decade ahead of "legacy" automakers. I saw a fair amount of that but it seemed to be more a reflection of Musk’s success at building an online fan club than sober analysis. The car people I know were bearish, noting that electric cars are relatively easy to build. The outlier was FSD, which would have been much harder to match if it hadn’t been at least a decade premature.