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>In the former case, the individual in question refused on multiple instances to return classified information when asked, and even after a search warrant, file

>In the former case, the individual in question refused on multiple instances to return classified information when asked, and even after a search warrant, filed a lawsuit to demand the classified information back You are selectively leaving out the part where Trump claims he declassified the documents. If he did, then the raid was unquestionably wrong.

fudgefactorfive 4y ago
Ipse dixit
- _-david-_ 4y ago
  Are you saying I am making and assertion without proof or that Trump did?
jcranmer 4y ago
There are certain procedures that need to be followed to declassify documents which Trump definitely did not follow. Also, I've read the legal briefings. Trump doesn't actually claim that he declassified the documents, only that he may have declassified them. And when pressed to clarify whether or not he was arguing that he declassified them, he complained that it was unfair to demand that he take a position on that matter. (Also, Trump never offered the declassification argument until well after the search warrant was executed, and not at any of the other several times when he was asked to return classified information.) (And to be fair, Trump has been unfairly treated--if anyone else had SCI information in their personal residence, they would be arguing these points of law from jail awaiting their trial. That he has yet to be charged with any crime is a sign of how unequitable his treatment has been.)
- _-david-_ 4y ago
  >There are certain procedures that need to be followed to declassify documents which Trump definitely did not follow. There is debate if a president needs to follow any specific procedure. >Also, I've read the legal briefings. Trump doesn't actually claim that he declassified the documents, only that he may have declassified them. Ok? >And when pressed to clarify whether or not he was arguing that he declassified them, he complained that it was unfair to demand that he take a position on that matter. I don't think he needs to take a public position. If there is a trial he can take whichever position he wants then. >(Also, Trump never offered the declassification argument until well after the search warrant was executed, and not at any of the other several times when he was asked to return classified information.) We don't know that. We only know he publicly didn't make the argument until after the search warrant. >(And to be fair, Trump has been unfairly treated--if anyone else had SCI information in their personal residence, they would be arguing these points of law from jail awaiting their trial. That he has yet to be charged with any crime is a sign of how unequitable his treatment has been.) Biden, Obama, Nixon and quite possibly all sorts of other politicians have all done the same and aren't in jail. I think you mean if he was a pleb he would be in jail, which is probably correct. The problem is, this whole thing was a comparison with Biden, who isn't in jail...
dragonwriter 4y ago
> You are selectively leaving out the part where Trump claims he declassified the documents That’s immaterial. Neither the crimes that DOJ has identified as potentially at issue nor the terms of the grand jury subpoena with which Trump’s noncomploance motivated the application for the search warrant turn on the classification status of the documents. > If he did, then the raid was unquestionably wrong. No, as long as the documents had classification markings, both the seizure in the raid and the raid itself, premised on seeking evidence of, inter alia, Trump’s noncompliance with the grand jury subpoena calling for production of all documents he had at MAL with classification markings, was clearly not only justified by the evidence available to DOJ when they applied for the warrant, but also based on suspicions proven out by the results.
- _-david-_ 4y ago
  It is material since this whole thing started well before Trump's noncompliance. Trump allowed the NARA to retrieve 15 boxes in January. He was also told to put an extra lock on the room with the documents. Clearly the government knew he still had documents and didn't care. Then suddenly a short time before the election they raid his house? It feels like malicious prosecution. Why aren't they trying to take back the documents we know Obama still has? As far as I can tell they have never even ask Obama for his documents back? Why not? There are other presidents as well who had documents for decades like Nixon. Surely taking back documents from a guy who did what Nixon did would be justifiable? But no, only Trump gets treated this way. My point is not that Trump didn't do anything wrong. Only that other presidents have not been required to turn over a huge amount of documents. Why should Trump be any different? Either we should enforce whatever rules there may be on all the politicians or none of them. If the FBI goes and searches Obama's house, takes a bunch of his stuff including things that is not related and doesn't document they took it, then I won't have an issue with the Trump raid. Until that happens I don't believe the FBI is acting in good faith. They have already shown they lied about this whole thing by taking his passport and lying about it.
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > It is material since this whole thing started well before Trump's noncompliance. If by this whole thing you mean Trump's conduct which is the subject of the criminal grand jury investigation which produced the subpoenas with which he failed to comply, resulting in the search warrant, yes, the conduct started before the investigation of the conduct. That’s... rather normal. > He was also told to put an extra lock on the room with the documents. Clearly the government knew he still had documents and didn't care. Clearly, the fact that they asked for risk mitigation until documents could be recovered demonstrated that they did care. > Why aren't they trying to take back the documents we know Obama still has? You mean, the ones the National Archives has that pro-Trump propagandists keep lying about to create false equivalencies, forcing NARA to put out statements reiterating that they, not Obama (or, as similar false claims have been made about, other former Presidents) have control of them? [0] [1] > There are other presidents as well who had documents for decades like Nixon. Nixon Administration (1969-1974) records were not subject to the Presidential Records Act of 1978 for... reasons which should be fairly obvious. In fact, the PRA was passed largely because of things Nixon did which there was no law in place to control, and which lawmakers didn't want to see repeated, so they put a law in place. > My point is not that Trump didn't do anything wrong. Only that other presidents have not been required to turn over a huge amount of documents. Because they didn't steal huge quantities of government documents in the first place, despite lies Trump's defenders keep telling and NARA keeps refuting, where Presidential library records held by NARA from former Administrations are falsely presented as being privately held by ex-Presidents in order to present a false “everyone else did it, too” narrative to minimize Trump’s wrongdoing. > Why should Trump be any different? Because he actually stole a bunch of government documents. [0] https://www.archives.gov/press/press-releases/2022/nr22-001#august-12-2022 https://www.archives.gov/press/press-releases/2022/nr22-001#... [1] https://www.archives.gov/press/press-releases/2022/nr22-001#october-11-2022 https://www.archives.gov/press/press-releases/2022/nr22-001#...

fudgefactorfive 4y ago

Ipse dixit

_-david-_ 4y ago
Are you saying I am making and assertion without proof or that Trump did?

jcranmer 4y ago

There are certain procedures that need to be followed to declassify documents which Trump definitely did not follow. Also, I've read the legal briefings. Trump doesn't actually claim that he declassified the documents, only that he may have declassified them. And when pressed to clarify whether or not he was arguing that he declassified them, he complained that it was unfair to demand that he take a position on that matter. (Also, Trump never offered the declassification argument until well after the search warrant was executed, and not at any of the other several times when he was asked to return classified information.) (And to be fair, Trump has been unfairly treated--if anyone else had SCI information in their personal residence, they would be arguing these points of law from jail awaiting their trial. That he has yet to be charged with any crime is a sign of how unequitable his treatment has been.)

_-david-_ 4y ago
>There are certain procedures that need to be followed to declassify documents which Trump definitely did not follow. There is debate if a president needs to follow any specific procedure. >Also, I've read the legal briefings. Trump doesn't actually claim that he declassified the documents, only that he may have declassified them. Ok? >And when pressed to clarify whether or not he was arguing that he declassified them, he complained that it was unfair to demand that he take a position on that matter. I don't think he needs to take a public position. If there is a trial he can take whichever position he wants then. >(Also, Trump never offered the declassification argument until well after the search warrant was executed, and not at any of the other several times when he was asked to return classified information.) We don't know that. We only know he publicly didn't make the argument until after the search warrant. >(And to be fair, Trump has been unfairly treated--if anyone else had SCI information in their personal residence, they would be arguing these points of law from jail awaiting their trial. That he has yet to be charged with any crime is a sign of how unequitable his treatment has been.) Biden, Obama, Nixon and quite possibly all sorts of other politicians have all done the same and aren't in jail. I think you mean if he was a pleb he would be in jail, which is probably correct. The problem is, this whole thing was a comparison with Biden, who isn't in jail...

dragonwriter 4y ago

> You are selectively leaving out the part where Trump claims he declassified the documents That’s immaterial. Neither the crimes that DOJ has identified as potentially at issue nor the terms of the grand jury subpoena with which Trump’s noncomploance motivated the application for the search warrant turn on the classification status of the documents. > If he did, then the raid was unquestionably wrong. No, as long as the documents had classification markings, both the seizure in the raid and the raid itself, premised on seeking evidence of, inter alia, Trump’s noncompliance with the grand jury subpoena calling for production of all documents he had at MAL with classification markings, was clearly not only justified by the evidence available to DOJ when they applied for the warrant, but also based on suspicions proven out by the results.

_-david-_ 4y ago
It is material since this whole thing started well before Trump's noncompliance. Trump allowed the NARA to retrieve 15 boxes in January. He was also told to put an extra lock on the room with the documents. Clearly the government knew he still had documents and didn't care. Then suddenly a short time before the election they raid his house? It feels like malicious prosecution. Why aren't they trying to take back the documents we know Obama still has? As far as I can tell they have never even ask Obama for his documents back? Why not? There are other presidents as well who had documents for decades like Nixon. Surely taking back documents from a guy who did what Nixon did would be justifiable? But no, only Trump gets treated this way. My point is not that Trump didn't do anything wrong. Only that other presidents have not been required to turn over a huge amount of documents. Why should Trump be any different? Either we should enforce whatever rules there may be on all the politicians or none of them. If the FBI goes and searches Obama's house, takes a bunch of his stuff including things that is not related and doesn't document they took it, then I won't have an issue with the Trump raid. Until that happens I don't believe the FBI is acting in good faith. They have already shown they lied about this whole thing by taking his passport and lying about it.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > It is material since this whole thing started well before Trump's noncompliance. If by this whole thing you mean Trump's conduct which is the subject of the criminal grand jury investigation which produced the subpoenas with which he failed to comply, resulting in the search warrant, yes, the conduct started before the investigation of the conduct. That’s... rather normal. > He was also told to put an extra lock on the room with the documents. Clearly the government knew he still had documents and didn't care. Clearly, the fact that they asked for risk mitigation until documents could be recovered demonstrated that they did care. > Why aren't they trying to take back the documents we know Obama still has? You mean, the ones the National Archives has that pro-Trump propagandists keep lying about to create false equivalencies, forcing NARA to put out statements reiterating that they, not Obama (or, as similar false claims have been made about, other former Presidents) have control of them? [0] [1] > There are other presidents as well who had documents for decades like Nixon. Nixon Administration (1969-1974) records were not subject to the Presidential Records Act of 1978 for... reasons which should be fairly obvious. In fact, the PRA was passed largely because of things Nixon did which there was no law in place to control, and which lawmakers didn't want to see repeated, so they put a law in place. > My point is not that Trump didn't do anything wrong. Only that other presidents have not been required to turn over a huge amount of documents. Because they didn't steal huge quantities of government documents in the first place, despite lies Trump's defenders keep telling and NARA keeps refuting, where Presidential library records held by NARA from former Administrations are falsely presented as being privately held by ex-Presidents in order to present a false “everyone else did it, too” narrative to minimize Trump’s wrongdoing. > Why should Trump be any different? Because he actually stole a bunch of government documents. [0] https://www.archives.gov/press/press-releases/2022/nr22-001#august-12-2022 https://www.archives.gov/press/press-releases/2022/nr22-001#... [1] https://www.archives.gov/press/press-releases/2022/nr22-001#october-11-2022 https://www.archives.gov/press/press-releases/2022/nr22-001#...