5 ms·

You know how the lawyers get upset when us engineers practice airchair lawyering? This is like the reverse of that. Hot is not a recommendation algorithm -- e

You know how the lawyers get upset when us engineers practice airchair lawyering? This is like the reverse of that. Hot is not a recommendation algorithm -- everyone has the same hot list. It's literally just a sort of votes. In fact, almost nothing reddit does is custom to the user. It's all based on votes and other user actions. The only thing custom is the recommended sort, which anyone can turn off, by choosing the other sorts. Saying that reddit is algorithmic would be akin to saying that voting for President is an "algorithm" because it adds up user votes and is biased because the voters are biased.

parineum 4y ago
> Hot is not a recommendation algorithm -- everyone has the same hot list. It's literally just a sort of votes. It doesn't have to be personal to be editorial. Newspapers, for example. I can sort by "top" which gives me the most votes in the given time period. I can sort by "new" which gives me the posts in chronological order. I can also sort by "hot" which serves posts in an unknown way that reddit has decided means they are driving interaction. To me, what makes "hot" different is that it's a trade secret. "hot" is the thing that other sites don't have. "hot" shows you posts that you're more likely to be interested in (as apposed to "new" or "top"), even if it's not personal, to drive engagement.
- jedberg 4y ago
  Hot is not a trade secret. How it works is public information. Here the code: https://github.com/reddit-archive/reddit/blob/master/r2/r2/lib/db/_sorts.pyx#L47 https://github.com/reddit-archive/reddit/blob/master/r2/r2/l...
  - Am4TIfIsER0ppos 4y ago
    > Latest commit d990533 Aug 17, 2015 Unless you run your own instance of reddit how can you be sure that is what is used?
    - edgyquant 4y ago
      It’s definitely not what’s used anymore. Reddit went closed source and when they did so they gave one reason being their internal codebase had completely diverged and moved to micro services
  - edgyquant 4y ago
    No that is how old Reddit worked before it went closed source and evolved into a social media app over the top site with comments it used to be
- MacsHeadroom 4y ago
  My understanding is that Hot is basically voting velocity times total votes. This is similar to "rising," which is essentially just voting velocity. The only editorialized "secret sauce" algorithm reddit has is called "recommended."
- hoseja 4y ago
  None of those show you what the powermods (in collusion with the admins) didn't deem fit for your consumption.
- shadowgovt 4y ago
  > It doesn't have to be personal to be editorial. Newspapers, for example. And in terms of the topic, this is the relevant framework to consider the question. It's already established law that newspaper editors can be held liable for maliciously false reporting in their papers, even though the editor is not the originator of the words.
hailwren 4y ago
This is the first time I’ve seen someone use the word “algorithm” to mean “custom to the user”. My algorithms professor would like a word. > Saying that reddit is algorithmic would be akin to saying that voting for President is an "algorithm" because it adds up user votes and is biased because the voters are biased. My algorithms professor certainly would have considered “call the winner of an election the person whose sum of votes is the highest after tallying all entries” an algorithm. There are, in fact, many other competing election algorithms amongst which first past the post is just one.
- 9WwFaLaTtBDaoS 4y ago
  It's always laughable when someone goes to defend something and fall flat on their face because they didn't think about it too hard. It's not even reasonable that algorithm would ever imply personalized.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- bcrosby95 4y ago
  Your algorithms professor would also call "sorting" an algorithm. But for the purposes of this conversation, "sorting by date" is not an algorithm.
  - hailwren 4y ago
    What makes it not an algorithm for this conversation?
    - puffoflogic 4y ago
      Algorithms bad.
    - trynewideas 4y ago
      Sorting is an algorithm that organizes content. Auto-moderation is an algorithm that editorially curates content. The conversation is about Section 230, which is ruling on whether companies can be held liable for editorial curation algorithms. One question before the court, at least from the perspective of Reddit's brief, is whether voters whose input influences an editorial curation algorithm could be held liable and sued with enough merit to warrant a defense if Section 230 is removed. @jedberg's point, at least in my reading, is that the r/law poster is equating the "hot" list with an editorial curation ("recommendation") algorithm, when the "hot" list is a content-neutral sorting algorithm. Sorting is technically an algorithm, so saying "but sorting is an algorithm" is the best kind of correct. It's just not a very valuable correctness for this conversation.
atomicnumber3 4y ago
It isn't just a sort on votes though, the algorithm takes into account post time and how fast it has gotten upvotes. If it was just sort by votes, we would've been looking at that "show do I uninstall the Skyrim mod 'schlongs of Skyrim'" on the front page for quite a lot time. So there is at least some nuance to it. (Not that I disagree with the gist of what you're saying though!)
BeefWellington 4y ago
The only thing custom is the recommended sort, which anyone can turn off, by choosing the other sorts. Reads as: "The only thing custom is the default algorithm." What are the stats on the % of people using reddit actively who get something OTHER than "recommended" as their sort option? Also, how do you square these ideas with the fact that there's an invisible thumb on the scale on votes, in terms of reddit's displayed vote count and the real vote count, the sheer number of bots on the site, and the fact that reddit chooses who gets to moderate subs (and in a few cases has actively replaced ownership of a sub)?
- Falkon1313 4y ago
  100% Everyone has the sort options 'best', 'hot', 'new', 'rising' (which I usually use), 'controversial' (sometimes interesting), and 'top'. I don't know which of those is considered 'recommended', or why someone would think that is the only thing custom. Each user can choose what subs they subscribe to, and therefore customize what they see in their feeds.
- Semaphor 4y ago
  > recommended What’s that? New Reddit only?
- ilyt 4y ago
  What is the percent of users never getting there and just going to subreddits they are interested in directly ? I'd bet like 90%
gnopgnip 4y ago
> everyone has the same hot list This has not been true for five years. https://www.reddit.com/r/modnews/comments/6j3dkw/testing_geo_popular_your_local_frontpage_of_the/ https://www.reddit.com/r/modnews/comments/6j3dkw/testing_geo...
- jedberg 4y ago
  You’re confusing popular and hot. Hot is the same for everyone.
- joshuamorton 4y ago
  That applies to a single subreddit. It was true even before that change that your and my hot would look different because we subscribed to different subreddits.
schneems 4y ago
There’s equality of opportunity and equality of outcome. Just because everyone is treated equally doesn’t mean that the end result isn’t biased. Truly: there is no such thing as apolitical technology. I recommend MIT books Building Successful Online Communities. Also I’m reading the updated version of “Code” which has a bit about online communities I quote a lot: Lessig (1999) identifies four elements that regulate behavior online: Laws, norms, markets, and technology - Code/architecture – the physical or technical constraints on activities (e.g. locks on doors or firewalls on the Internet) - Market – economic forces - Law – explicit mandates that can be enforced by the government - Norms – social conventions that one often feels compelled to follow Regarding the case at hand. I think getting rid of 230 is a really dangerous idea. However I completely reject the “we have no sway over our users” argument and think we should hold online institutions socially (more) accountable for not doing more to encourage and promote high quality non-toxic communities.
rrrrrrrrrrrryan 4y ago
> Hot is not a recommendation algorithm -- everyone has the same hot list. It's literally just a sort of votes. Is that true? How do they decide when a post falls off the feed? It's clearly a velocity calculation of some sort, but I'm sure it's been tweaked and changed over time. But how? What's the actual calculation? Does it vary by subreddit? If they published the calculation/algorithm, would it matter?
seanhunter 4y ago
An algorithm is a recipe or formula. There is nothing about an algorithm that requires it to be custom to the user. Merriam-Webster[1] has it as: a procedure for solving a mathematical problem (as of finding the greatest common divisor) in a finite number of steps that frequently involves repetition of an operation broadly : a step-by-step procedure for solving a problem or accomplishing some end "Hot" absolutely is a sorting algorithm. Whether or not you consider the top items in a sort to be recommended is a matter of opinion. [1] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/algorithm https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/algorithm

parineum 4y ago

> Hot is not a recommendation algorithm -- everyone has the same hot list. It's literally just a sort of votes. It doesn't have to be personal to be editorial. Newspapers, for example. I can sort by "top" which gives me the most votes in the given time period. I can sort by "new" which gives me the posts in chronological order. I can also sort by "hot" which serves posts in an unknown way that reddit has decided means they are driving interaction. To me, what makes "hot" different is that it's a trade secret. "hot" is the thing that other sites don't have. "hot" shows you posts that you're more likely to be interested in (as apposed to "new" or "top"), even if it's not personal, to drive engagement.

jedberg 4y ago
Hot is not a trade secret. How it works is public information. Here the code: https://github.com/reddit-archive/reddit/blob/master/r2/r2/lib/db/_sorts.pyx#L47 https://github.com/reddit-archive/reddit/blob/master/r2/r2/l...
- Am4TIfIsER0ppos 4y ago
  > Latest commit d990533 Aug 17, 2015 Unless you run your own instance of reddit how can you be sure that is what is used?
  - edgyquant 4y ago
    It’s definitely not what’s used anymore. Reddit went closed source and when they did so they gave one reason being their internal codebase had completely diverged and moved to micro services
- edgyquant 4y ago
  No that is how old Reddit worked before it went closed source and evolved into a social media app over the top site with comments it used to be
MacsHeadroom 4y ago
My understanding is that Hot is basically voting velocity times total votes. This is similar to "rising," which is essentially just voting velocity. The only editorialized "secret sauce" algorithm reddit has is called "recommended."
hoseja 4y ago
None of those show you what the powermods (in collusion with the admins) didn't deem fit for your consumption.
shadowgovt 4y ago
> It doesn't have to be personal to be editorial. Newspapers, for example. And in terms of the topic, this is the relevant framework to consider the question. It's already established law that newspaper editors can be held liable for maliciously false reporting in their papers, even though the editor is not the originator of the words.

hailwren 4y ago

This is the first time I’ve seen someone use the word “algorithm” to mean “custom to the user”. My algorithms professor would like a word. > Saying that reddit is algorithmic would be akin to saying that voting for President is an "algorithm" because it adds up user votes and is biased because the voters are biased. My algorithms professor certainly would have considered “call the winner of an election the person whose sum of votes is the highest after tallying all entries” an algorithm. There are, in fact, many other competing election algorithms amongst which first past the post is just one.

9WwFaLaTtBDaoS 4y ago
It's always laughable when someone goes to defend something and fall flat on their face because they didn't think about it too hard. It's not even reasonable that algorithm would ever imply personalized.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
bcrosby95 4y ago
Your algorithms professor would also call "sorting" an algorithm. But for the purposes of this conversation, "sorting by date" is not an algorithm.
- hailwren 4y ago
  What makes it not an algorithm for this conversation?
  - puffoflogic 4y ago
    Algorithms bad.
  - trynewideas 4y ago
    Sorting is an algorithm that organizes content. Auto-moderation is an algorithm that editorially curates content. The conversation is about Section 230, which is ruling on whether companies can be held liable for editorial curation algorithms. One question before the court, at least from the perspective of Reddit's brief, is whether voters whose input influences an editorial curation algorithm could be held liable and sued with enough merit to warrant a defense if Section 230 is removed. @jedberg's point, at least in my reading, is that the r/law poster is equating the "hot" list with an editorial curation ("recommendation") algorithm, when the "hot" list is a content-neutral sorting algorithm. Sorting is technically an algorithm, so saying "but sorting is an algorithm" is the best kind of correct. It's just not a very valuable correctness for this conversation.

atomicnumber3 4y ago

It isn't just a sort on votes though, the algorithm takes into account post time and how fast it has gotten upvotes. If it was just sort by votes, we would've been looking at that "show do I uninstall the Skyrim mod 'schlongs of Skyrim'" on the front page for quite a lot time. So there is at least some nuance to it. (Not that I disagree with the gist of what you're saying though!)

BeefWellington 4y ago

The only thing custom is the recommended sort, which anyone can turn off, by choosing the other sorts. Reads as: "The only thing custom is the default algorithm." What are the stats on the % of people using reddit actively who get something OTHER than "recommended" as their sort option? Also, how do you square these ideas with the fact that there's an invisible thumb on the scale on votes, in terms of reddit's displayed vote count and the real vote count, the sheer number of bots on the site, and the fact that reddit chooses who gets to moderate subs (and in a few cases has actively replaced ownership of a sub)?

Falkon1313 4y ago
100% Everyone has the sort options 'best', 'hot', 'new', 'rising' (which I usually use), 'controversial' (sometimes interesting), and 'top'. I don't know which of those is considered 'recommended', or why someone would think that is the only thing custom. Each user can choose what subs they subscribe to, and therefore customize what they see in their feeds.
Semaphor 4y ago
> recommended What’s that? New Reddit only?
ilyt 4y ago
What is the percent of users never getting there and just going to subreddits they are interested in directly ? I'd bet like 90%

gnopgnip 4y ago

> everyone has the same hot list This has not been true for five years. https://www.reddit.com/r/modnews/comments/6j3dkw/testing_geo_popular_your_local_frontpage_of_the/ https://www.reddit.com/r/modnews/comments/6j3dkw/testing_geo...

jedberg 4y ago
You’re confusing popular and hot. Hot is the same for everyone.
joshuamorton 4y ago
That applies to a single subreddit. It was true even before that change that your and my hot would look different because we subscribed to different subreddits.

schneems 4y ago

There’s equality of opportunity and equality of outcome. Just because everyone is treated equally doesn’t mean that the end result isn’t biased. Truly: there is no such thing as apolitical technology. I recommend MIT books Building Successful Online Communities. Also I’m reading the updated version of “Code” which has a bit about online communities I quote a lot: Lessig (1999) identifies four elements that regulate behavior online: Laws, norms, markets, and technology - Code/architecture – the physical or technical constraints on activities (e.g. locks on doors or firewalls on the Internet) - Market – economic forces - Law – explicit mandates that can be enforced by the government - Norms – social conventions that one often feels compelled to follow Regarding the case at hand. I think getting rid of 230 is a really dangerous idea. However I completely reject the “we have no sway over our users” argument and think we should hold online institutions socially (more) accountable for not doing more to encourage and promote high quality non-toxic communities.

rrrrrrrrrrrryan 4y ago

> Hot is not a recommendation algorithm -- everyone has the same hot list. It's literally just a sort of votes. Is that true? How do they decide when a post falls off the feed? It's clearly a velocity calculation of some sort, but I'm sure it's been tweaked and changed over time. But how? What's the actual calculation? Does it vary by subreddit? If they published the calculation/algorithm, would it matter?

seanhunter 4y ago

An algorithm is a recipe or formula. There is nothing about an algorithm that requires it to be custom to the user. Merriam-Webster[1] has it as: a procedure for solving a mathematical problem (as of finding the greatest common divisor) in a finite number of steps that frequently involves repetition of an operation broadly : a step-by-step procedure for solving a problem or accomplishing some end "Hot" absolutely is a sorting algorithm. Whether or not you consider the top items in a sort to be recommended is a matter of opinion. [1] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/algorithm https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/algorithm