5 ms·

> This proof-of-concept would be a breakthrough for healthcare, security, gaming (VR), and a host of other industries. Similar capability is scheduled for new

> This proof-of-concept would be a breakthrough for healthcare, security, gaming (VR), and a host of other industries. Similar capability is scheduled for new consumer routers in 2024 via Wi-Fi 7 Sensing / IEEE 802.11bf. Hundreds of previous papers include terms like these: human-to-human interaction recognition device-free human activity recognition occupant activity recognition in smart offices emotion sensing via wireless channel data CSI learning for gait biometric sensing sleep monitoring from afar human breath status via commodity wifi device-free crowd sensing Earlier discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34423395 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34423395 Sample code exists for ESP32 WROOM, https://wrlab.github.io/Wi-ESP/ https://wrlab.github.io/Wi-ESP/ and Intel 5300, https://dhalperi.github.io/linux-80211n-csitool/ https://dhalperi.github.io/linux-80211n-csitool/

avree 4y ago
Even pre-WiFi 7, there are companies such as Cognitive who allow you to detect motion (as well as occupant activity, etc.). I implemented such a system at my previous company which sold Wi-Fi.
- transpute 4y ago
  Yes, some vendors have shipped their own implementations. There's also custom firmware for some radios. But standardization will bring scale and ubiquity to non-technical users. Are millions of city occupants ready for transparent walls, floors and ceilings? Are businesses ready for remote keystroke detection?
  - Gigachad 4y ago
    I guess the future is RF blocking walls. Might even be a good thing since It'll allow for less congested airwaves for yourself.
    - transpute 4y ago
      Maybe something like this foil-backed gypsum board, https://www.goldbondbuilding.com/products/drywall-panels/foil-back-gypsum-board https://www.goldbondbuilding.com/products/drywall-panels/foi... RF/sound blocking drywall for SCIFs costs a small fortune, https://www.quietrock.com/products/quietrock-530rf https://www.quietrock.com/products/quietrock-530rf EMF shielding case study, https://www.zokazola.com/emf_reduction.html https://www.zokazola.com/emf_reduction.html
      - novok 4y ago
        You can get a lot of sound proofing by double layering drywall with an air gap in-between in exchange for some floor space.
        Gigachad 4y ago
        My apartment ceiling has a ~60cm air gap with air conditioner ducting and stuff inside, not sure how responsible it is but I hear basically nothing from above me. Same for the side walls although I believe those are just super dense fire proof walls.
    - azinman2 4y ago
      I suggest the opposite - it will enable many exciting smart home possibilities which in some could seriously reduce HVAC energy needs beyond what’s possible today.
      - Gigachad 4y ago
        You could leave the internal walls RF transparent. Which allows you to do whatever you want without your neighbors wifi scanning you.
      - gonzo41 4y ago
        Building energy efficient homes also does that. No need to over complicate the situation.
  - 8n4vidtmkvmk 4y ago
    > remote keystroke detection Wait what..? Is it that good? That's even more terrifying
    - orangepurple 4y ago
      Thankfully I use an extreme custom keyboard layout so I wish them luck.
      - wholinator2 4y ago
        Well I think with enough time you could just use the key press model to try different configurations until you got one that gave intelligible results. The process could be easily automated if the resolution is enough to support accuracy in the 90th percentile
      - ilyt 4y ago
        That's about as hard as decrypting substitution cipher. Just think about the problem for a second, you will figure out how to trivially go around it.
      - eurasiantiger 4y ago
        That’s just as secure as ROT13
      - heavenlyblue 4y ago
        Do you also have your number keys remapped non-linearly?
    - transpute 4y ago
      2015 paper, https://dl.acm.org/doi/abs/10.1145/2789168.2790109 https://dl.acm.org/doi/abs/10.1145/2789168.2790109 > We implemented the WiKey system using a TP-Link TL-WR1043ND WiFi router and a Lenovo X200 laptop. WiKey achieves more than 97.5% detection rate for detecting the keystroke and 96.4% recognition accuracy for classifying single keys. In real-world experiments, WiKey can recognize keystrokes in a continuously typed sentence with an accuracy of 93.5%. More papers on keystroke recognition: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=5%2C31&sciodt=0%2C31&cites=4354757827101869878&scipsc=1&q=keystroke https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=5%2C31&sciod... 60Ghz mmWave radar (coming to Wi-Fi via 802.11ay) has higher resolution, shorter range and low ability to penetrate building walls, but can pass through unshielded windows: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30172647 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30172647.
- walrus01 4y ago
  > there are companies such as Cognitive It's my understanding that there have been companies trying to sell solutions like this for people-tracking indoors for supermarkets/grocery stores, shopping malls, large department stores for at least 7-8 years now. (edit: Stuff like RF beacons built into shopping cart handles, right? Since the shopping carts are centrally owned/managed/controlled and with unique serial numbers, and mostly don't get stolen or leave the property.)
  - avree 4y ago
    Your understanding is correct, but most of those were based on iBeacons/NFC/other tech and not Wi-Fi.
    - stefan_ 4y ago
      There were some things around WiFi, but on a higher level, e.g. recognizing unique radio mac addresses that were sending probes for their home SSIDs. Big reason most devices will now randomize their MAC address until actually authenticated with a network.
arkadiyt 4y ago
> Earlier discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34423395 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34423395 The top comment [0] on this has: > Counter-measures: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27121918#27133079 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27121918#27133079 but I don't understand the setup here. If you have the capability to run custom firmware on your router then don't you not need this countermeasure, since you can be confident your router isn't doing this wireframing anyway? Or is it saying that a passive bystander who is not connected to your network can infer the wireframes as well? That seems unlikely to me? [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34424242 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34424242
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- transpute 4y ago
  > passive bystander who is not connected to your network can infer the wireframes as well? Yes, this can be done with a custom client monitoring existing routers today. A bystander can also use their own router (2.4Ghz passes through most walls) to make inferences about human activity inside your building.
  - arkadiyt 4y ago
    Then the countermeasure does nothing since you can't run your firmware on their router?
    - avree 4y ago
      Correct, this 'countermeasure' is for a fantasy world in which it's easier to compromise your router than set up a couple clients and a router nearby. Also, realistically, wi-fi isn't the boogeyman here, even though the person you're replying to has been doom-posting about it for years - UWB and various other tech is going to make detecting location and movement from RF frequency fairly trivial.
      - 4y ago
walrus01 4y ago
> Similar capability is scheduled for new consumer routers in 2024 via Wi-Fi 7 Sensing / IEEE 802.11bf. Reminds me somewhat of a joke I recently saw posted somewhere in social media by a greybeard Unix sysadmin. In a discussion related new consumer grade IOT technology. "The newest piece of technology I have in my house is an HP Laserjet 4, and I keep a revolver ready to shoot it if it ever makes an unexpected noise" On a more serious note, however, I see a real serious problem with having consumer/residential wifi routers that can attempt to track people or movement around a house and have the default-on, built in capability to make themselves centrally manageable by some form of persistent internet-based connection-over-TLS link to their manufacturer. Same general ideas as Meraki or other. Who wants to bet that the manufacturers of these things leave this capability turned on by default AND submitting data through its "cloud management" feature persistently for as long as the device is powered on and has a viable default route/gateway to the internet? Who wants to bet that in 5-7 years we're seeing problems with these things submitting data sets of peoples' movement around a house into some database run by a vendor that then suffers a major data breach?
- neilv 4y ago
  That joke is one of the all-time top /r/ProgrammerHumor posts: https://old.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/aloi5v/programmers_know_the_risks_involved/ https://old.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/aloi5v/pro...
- barbazoo 4y ago
  As you said, I can't imagine how this will not go wrong.
giantg2 4y ago
Sounds like phrases out of 1984.
- yieldcrv 4y ago
  does it thouuuugh? I understand that references to 1984 are meant to convey an aversion to the potential of government surveillance, unavoidable totalitarian control, and a society that exists far after this has already occurred but there aren't any phrases in that 73 year old book like that, kind of overused and dilutive
  - r00fus 4y ago
    Just because the bad guys already has some power doesn’t mean we should be making things even easier for them.
  - barbazoo 4y ago
    Maybe they meant it more as a comparison to Winston's living situation and how he had to stand in one corner to not be seen if I remember correctly. The very first thing I thought of when I read through this here was how I might be less safe from observation by the government with this. And I'm really no anti or even small government type yet it's the first thing that came to mind.
    - shanebellone 4y ago
      It takes one person (somewhere between invention and extinction) to flip that switch. I'm fairly convinced drone technology is a bad idea for the very same reason.
- beebmam 4y ago
  Can you give us an example of the kind of phase you're talking about?

avree 4y ago

Even pre-WiFi 7, there are companies such as Cognitive who allow you to detect motion (as well as occupant activity, etc.). I implemented such a system at my previous company which sold Wi-Fi.

transpute 4y ago
Yes, some vendors have shipped their own implementations. There's also custom firmware for some radios. But standardization will bring scale and ubiquity to non-technical users. Are millions of city occupants ready for transparent walls, floors and ceilings? Are businesses ready for remote keystroke detection?
- Gigachad 4y ago
  I guess the future is RF blocking walls. Might even be a good thing since It'll allow for less congested airwaves for yourself.
  - transpute 4y ago
    Maybe something like this foil-backed gypsum board, https://www.goldbondbuilding.com/products/drywall-panels/foil-back-gypsum-board https://www.goldbondbuilding.com/products/drywall-panels/foi... RF/sound blocking drywall for SCIFs costs a small fortune, https://www.quietrock.com/products/quietrock-530rf https://www.quietrock.com/products/quietrock-530rf EMF shielding case study, https://www.zokazola.com/emf_reduction.html https://www.zokazola.com/emf_reduction.html
    - novok 4y ago
      You can get a lot of sound proofing by double layering drywall with an air gap in-between in exchange for some floor space.
      - Gigachad 4y ago
        My apartment ceiling has a ~60cm air gap with air conditioner ducting and stuff inside, not sure how responsible it is but I hear basically nothing from above me. Same for the side walls although I believe those are just super dense fire proof walls.
  - azinman2 4y ago
    I suggest the opposite - it will enable many exciting smart home possibilities which in some could seriously reduce HVAC energy needs beyond what’s possible today.
    - Gigachad 4y ago
      You could leave the internal walls RF transparent. Which allows you to do whatever you want without your neighbors wifi scanning you.
    - gonzo41 4y ago
      Building energy efficient homes also does that. No need to over complicate the situation.
- 8n4vidtmkvmk 4y ago
  > remote keystroke detection Wait what..? Is it that good? That's even more terrifying
  - orangepurple 4y ago
    Thankfully I use an extreme custom keyboard layout so I wish them luck.
    - wholinator2 4y ago
      Well I think with enough time you could just use the key press model to try different configurations until you got one that gave intelligible results. The process could be easily automated if the resolution is enough to support accuracy in the 90th percentile
    - ilyt 4y ago
      That's about as hard as decrypting substitution cipher. Just think about the problem for a second, you will figure out how to trivially go around it.
    - eurasiantiger 4y ago
      That’s just as secure as ROT13
    - heavenlyblue 4y ago
      Do you also have your number keys remapped non-linearly?
  - transpute 4y ago
    2015 paper, https://dl.acm.org/doi/abs/10.1145/2789168.2790109 https://dl.acm.org/doi/abs/10.1145/2789168.2790109 > We implemented the WiKey system using a TP-Link TL-WR1043ND WiFi router and a Lenovo X200 laptop. WiKey achieves more than 97.5% detection rate for detecting the keystroke and 96.4% recognition accuracy for classifying single keys. In real-world experiments, WiKey can recognize keystrokes in a continuously typed sentence with an accuracy of 93.5%. More papers on keystroke recognition: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=5%2C31&sciodt=0%2C31&cites=4354757827101869878&scipsc=1&q=keystroke https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=5%2C31&sciod... 60Ghz mmWave radar (coming to Wi-Fi via 802.11ay) has higher resolution, shorter range and low ability to penetrate building walls, but can pass through unshielded windows: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30172647 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30172647.
walrus01 4y ago
> there are companies such as Cognitive It's my understanding that there have been companies trying to sell solutions like this for people-tracking indoors for supermarkets/grocery stores, shopping malls, large department stores for at least 7-8 years now. (edit: Stuff like RF beacons built into shopping cart handles, right? Since the shopping carts are centrally owned/managed/controlled and with unique serial numbers, and mostly don't get stolen or leave the property.)
- avree 4y ago
  Your understanding is correct, but most of those were based on iBeacons/NFC/other tech and not Wi-Fi.
  - stefan_ 4y ago
    There were some things around WiFi, but on a higher level, e.g. recognizing unique radio mac addresses that were sending probes for their home SSIDs. Big reason most devices will now randomize their MAC address until actually authenticated with a network.

arkadiyt 4y ago

> Earlier discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34423395 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34423395 The top comment [0] on this has: > Counter-measures: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27121918#27133079 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27121918#27133079 but I don't understand the setup here. If you have the capability to run custom firmware on your router then don't you not need this countermeasure, since you can be confident your router isn't doing this wireframing anyway? Or is it saying that a passive bystander who is not connected to your network can infer the wireframes as well? That seems unlikely to me? [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34424242 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34424242

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
transpute 4y ago
> passive bystander who is not connected to your network can infer the wireframes as well? Yes, this can be done with a custom client monitoring existing routers today. A bystander can also use their own router (2.4Ghz passes through most walls) to make inferences about human activity inside your building.
- arkadiyt 4y ago
  Then the countermeasure does nothing since you can't run your firmware on their router?
  - avree 4y ago
    Correct, this 'countermeasure' is for a fantasy world in which it's easier to compromise your router than set up a couple clients and a router nearby. Also, realistically, wi-fi isn't the boogeyman here, even though the person you're replying to has been doom-posting about it for years - UWB and various other tech is going to make detecting location and movement from RF frequency fairly trivial.
    - 4y ago

walrus01 4y ago

> Similar capability is scheduled for new consumer routers in 2024 via Wi-Fi 7 Sensing / IEEE 802.11bf. Reminds me somewhat of a joke I recently saw posted somewhere in social media by a greybeard Unix sysadmin. In a discussion related new consumer grade IOT technology. "The newest piece of technology I have in my house is an HP Laserjet 4, and I keep a revolver ready to shoot it if it ever makes an unexpected noise" On a more serious note, however, I see a real serious problem with having consumer/residential wifi routers that can attempt to track people or movement around a house and have the default-on, built in capability to make themselves centrally manageable by some form of persistent internet-based connection-over-TLS link to their manufacturer. Same general ideas as Meraki or other. Who wants to bet that the manufacturers of these things leave this capability turned on by default AND submitting data through its "cloud management" feature persistently for as long as the device is powered on and has a viable default route/gateway to the internet? Who wants to bet that in 5-7 years we're seeing problems with these things submitting data sets of peoples' movement around a house into some database run by a vendor that then suffers a major data breach?

neilv 4y ago
That joke is one of the all-time top /r/ProgrammerHumor posts: https://old.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/aloi5v/programmers_know_the_risks_involved/ https://old.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/aloi5v/pro...
barbazoo 4y ago
As you said, I can't imagine how this will not go wrong.

giantg2 4y ago

Sounds like phrases out of 1984.

yieldcrv 4y ago
does it thouuuugh? I understand that references to 1984 are meant to convey an aversion to the potential of government surveillance, unavoidable totalitarian control, and a society that exists far after this has already occurred but there aren't any phrases in that 73 year old book like that, kind of overused and dilutive
- r00fus 4y ago
  Just because the bad guys already has some power doesn’t mean we should be making things even easier for them.
- barbazoo 4y ago
  Maybe they meant it more as a comparison to Winston's living situation and how he had to stand in one corner to not be seen if I remember correctly. The very first thing I thought of when I read through this here was how I might be less safe from observation by the government with this. And I'm really no anti or even small government type yet it's the first thing that came to mind.
  - shanebellone 4y ago
    It takes one person (somewhere between invention and extinction) to flip that switch. I'm fairly convinced drone technology is a bad idea for the very same reason.
beebmam 4y ago
Can you give us an example of the kind of phase you're talking about?