5 ms·

At the same time, it's not necessarily pleasant to consider the prospect of an internet where 99.9% of traffic is generated by AI-powered spambots engaged in ad

by kibwen 4y ago

At the same time, it's not necessarily pleasant to consider the prospect of an internet where 99.9% of traffic is generated by AI-powered spambots engaged in adversarial games with AI-powered anti-spambots.

honkler 4y ago
dead internet theory: https://dailyfreepress.com/2021/10/21/the-dead-internet-theory/ https://dailyfreepress.com/2021/10/21/the-dead-internet-theo...
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
sharkweek 4y ago
But it does make for an interesting idea as a plot device in speculative fiction!
- yieldcrv 4y ago
  Cyberpunk 2077 features this reality. Its not discussed much, but basically only local small scale networking is done (like citywide scale) because the broader internet protocol has either crumbled or is polluted by adversarial bots. So its pretty taboo to go there or simply unused. I'm sure someone else knows the lore better. There is a lot of supporting literature, just not a key component of any stories.
  - thatguy0900 4y ago
    I think the lore is that the wider internet was intentionally taken down by a virus made by a master hacker in the past. Any attempts to connect with it gets you killed by either the virus or "feral ais", but some of the mega corps pay people to explore it every once in a while looking for stuff.
ThrowawayTestr 4y ago
Honestly the most likely source of computers becoming self-aware.
- nwellnhof 4y ago
  That's basically the plot of the novel Avogadro Corp by William Hertling.
- ben_w 4y ago
  And a plausible way for them — on either team — to take over completely. Both treating us not even as pets but as grass. In this analogy the good AI are gardeners, the bad AI are cow farmers.
  - luisapic 4y ago
    [dead]
atorodius 4y ago
I thought we are already nearly there? I remember reading 90%+ of emails are spam and this was a while back
- danielheath 4y ago
  90% is a lower figure for how much of HTTP traffic is bots scraping sites, too.
cortesoft 4y ago
Why is that bad? As long as it is invisible to humans and doesn't cause bottlenecks, who cares?
- mahogany 4y ago
  For one, it's a waste of energy.
  - resonious 4y ago
    Banks also waste energy deterring people from robbing them. Internet or not, we'll have to stomach a good amount of bad stuff in order to get to the good stuff.
shagie 4y ago
If you haven't read Accelerando, I'll suggest it - https://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/fiction/accelerando/accelerando-intro.html https://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/fiction/acceler...
- jvm___ 4y ago
  https://maggieappleton.com/ai-dark-forest https://maggieappleton.com/ai-dark-forest The open internet will be a dark forest, beautiful but mostly populated by metal-brains, meatb-brains will retreat to their human only spaces, local Facebook or Instagram where you know everyone in person or WhatsApp chat groups.
  - shagie 4y ago
    Interesting - going to have to read this more in depth. I also note that I missed it when it went past the front page at the start of the month. For any others who also missed it - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34243709 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34243709
- Oxidation 4y ago
  Also the Reticulum of Anathem which was mostly full of spam-generators that were run by the spam-filter vendors to make their products necessary.
  - shagie 4y ago
    Btw, the chants from the book are real (and part of the interludes if you get the audiobook - which I recommend since the initially boring but ultimately important parts it aren't skippable without effort). https://soundcloud.com/ztutz/sets/iolet-music-from-the-world-of-anathem https://soundcloud.com/ztutz/sets/iolet-music-from-the-world... The Thousander Chant is fun if you've got the right audio setup. https://longnow.org/store/iolet/ https://longnow.org/store/iolet/ > In Neal Stephenson’s new novel Anathem, the Decanarian Erasmus’ daily chore is to ring the Clock bells in his “Math” in a special sequence each day as he chants out the sequence. Those sequences and chants are all based on mathematical formulae that composer and coder David Stutz has put together into an album called Iolet.
yieldcrv 4y ago
Cyberpunk 2077 features a world after this has happened. Not because it happened, its just after. If there is a reference to an older internet it features its disuse due to this.
nbardy 4y ago
I think the opportunity cost of better employee will make it hard for that to scale. If you’re that good at scaling systems like that someone with legit traffic would be able to pay more than the spam companies.
Tsiklon 4y ago
Part of this is what I imagine is behind the “Blackwall” in the Cyberpunk universe.
epicureanideal 4y ago
There are still solutions in that case. Email addresses only allocated to verified humans, which only accept email from the same addresses or specifically allowed outside email addresses. Alternatively, email addresses that are necessarily paid for that have maximum sending limits or extra costs above those limits, so those addresses are not profitable for spam bots to use. I could imagine some kind of “super priority email” that costs a dollar or something, that gets prioritized and is very unlikely to be marked spam. More ideas: Maybe the amount paid per email sent changes depending on the percent of previous emails marked “accept emails from this sender”. Maybe some percentage of the e-mail fee is given to the recipient of the email. Note that if a highly spam resistant email account is adopted by everyone the amount of spam sent may fall significantly. Gmail doesn’t count because it still isn’t as good as a system where sending millions of spam emails is simply too expensive.
sangnoir 4y ago
Every day we get closer to the Slug from Accelerando (by @cstross): a self-owned sentient corporation/419 scam

by kibwen 4y ago

honkler 4y ago

dead internet theory: https://dailyfreepress.com/2021/10/21/the-dead-internet-theory/ https://dailyfreepress.com/2021/10/21/the-dead-internet-theo...

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

sharkweek 4y ago

But it does make for an interesting idea as a plot device in speculative fiction!

yieldcrv 4y ago
Cyberpunk 2077 features this reality. Its not discussed much, but basically only local small scale networking is done (like citywide scale) because the broader internet protocol has either crumbled or is polluted by adversarial bots. So its pretty taboo to go there or simply unused. I'm sure someone else knows the lore better. There is a lot of supporting literature, just not a key component of any stories.
- thatguy0900 4y ago
  I think the lore is that the wider internet was intentionally taken down by a virus made by a master hacker in the past. Any attempts to connect with it gets you killed by either the virus or "feral ais", but some of the mega corps pay people to explore it every once in a while looking for stuff.

ThrowawayTestr 4y ago

Honestly the most likely source of computers becoming self-aware.

nwellnhof 4y ago
That's basically the plot of the novel Avogadro Corp by William Hertling.
ben_w 4y ago
And a plausible way for them — on either team — to take over completely. Both treating us not even as pets but as grass. In this analogy the good AI are gardeners, the bad AI are cow farmers.
- luisapic 4y ago
  [dead]

atorodius 4y ago

I thought we are already nearly there? I remember reading 90%+ of emails are spam and this was a while back

danielheath 4y ago
90% is a lower figure for how much of HTTP traffic is bots scraping sites, too.

cortesoft 4y ago

Why is that bad? As long as it is invisible to humans and doesn't cause bottlenecks, who cares?

mahogany 4y ago
For one, it's a waste of energy.
- resonious 4y ago
  Banks also waste energy deterring people from robbing them. Internet or not, we'll have to stomach a good amount of bad stuff in order to get to the good stuff.

shagie 4y ago

If you haven't read Accelerando, I'll suggest it - https://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/fiction/accelerando/accelerando-intro.html https://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/fiction/acceler...

jvm___ 4y ago
https://maggieappleton.com/ai-dark-forest https://maggieappleton.com/ai-dark-forest The open internet will be a dark forest, beautiful but mostly populated by metal-brains, meatb-brains will retreat to their human only spaces, local Facebook or Instagram where you know everyone in person or WhatsApp chat groups.
- shagie 4y ago
  Interesting - going to have to read this more in depth. I also note that I missed it when it went past the front page at the start of the month. For any others who also missed it - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34243709 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34243709
Oxidation 4y ago
Also the Reticulum of Anathem which was mostly full of spam-generators that were run by the spam-filter vendors to make their products necessary.
- shagie 4y ago
  Btw, the chants from the book are real (and part of the interludes if you get the audiobook - which I recommend since the initially boring but ultimately important parts it aren't skippable without effort). https://soundcloud.com/ztutz/sets/iolet-music-from-the-world-of-anathem https://soundcloud.com/ztutz/sets/iolet-music-from-the-world... The Thousander Chant is fun if you've got the right audio setup. https://longnow.org/store/iolet/ https://longnow.org/store/iolet/ > In Neal Stephenson’s new novel Anathem, the Decanarian Erasmus’ daily chore is to ring the Clock bells in his “Math” in a special sequence each day as he chants out the sequence. Those sequences and chants are all based on mathematical formulae that composer and coder David Stutz has put together into an album called Iolet.

yieldcrv 4y ago

Cyberpunk 2077 features a world after this has happened. Not because it happened, its just after. If there is a reference to an older internet it features its disuse due to this.

nbardy 4y ago

I think the opportunity cost of better employee will make it hard for that to scale. If you’re that good at scaling systems like that someone with legit traffic would be able to pay more than the spam companies.

Tsiklon 4y ago

Part of this is what I imagine is behind the “Blackwall” in the Cyberpunk universe.

epicureanideal 4y ago

There are still solutions in that case. Email addresses only allocated to verified humans, which only accept email from the same addresses or specifically allowed outside email addresses. Alternatively, email addresses that are necessarily paid for that have maximum sending limits or extra costs above those limits, so those addresses are not profitable for spam bots to use. I could imagine some kind of “super priority email” that costs a dollar or something, that gets prioritized and is very unlikely to be marked spam. More ideas: Maybe the amount paid per email sent changes depending on the percent of previous emails marked “accept emails from this sender”. Maybe some percentage of the e-mail fee is given to the recipient of the email. Note that if a highly spam resistant email account is adopted by everyone the amount of spam sent may fall significantly. Gmail doesn’t count because it still isn’t as good as a system where sending millions of spam emails is simply too expensive.

sangnoir 4y ago

Every day we get closer to the Slug from Accelerando (by @cstross): a self-owned sentient corporation/419 scam