4 ms·

Also note that a lot of these government programs come with some amount of bureaucratic entanglement, where the person needs to fill out a bunch of forms repeat

Also note that a lot of these government programs come with some amount of bureaucratic entanglement, where the person needs to fill out a bunch of forms repeatedly, visit government offices, be scrutinized by the government, and so on, all of which can detract from their efforts to better themselves and find employment. Separate thought: with so much focus on the oppressed and downtrodden in our politics these days, how is it that obvious problems like the parent commenter mentions are not being fixed? Why aren't reasonable people of both parties trying to create the right incentive structures for the poor at least in areas where they both agree?

analog31 4y ago
All it takes is 10 people to wreck everything right now. And those people think that making society more fragile and cutthroat will somehow make us more moral, and in turn, more prosperous.
- mjevans 4y ago
  We're more divided than ever, and those ~10 people in the larger legislative chamber of the US Federal government will metaphorically kick and scream and whinge as they try to hold the entire country hostage... and the other ~210 who happen to claim to be in the same political party will let them out of a desire to keep some illusion of control they don't have, rather than compromise at all and work for the benefit of everyone.
  - matthewdgreen 4y ago
    I think the 210 can rightly point to over a decade of compromising, and they can make a pretty compelling case that every compromise led to more extreme and dangerous behavior from that small minority. I say this as someone who supported this compromises and now deeply regrets it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_United_States_debt-ceiling_crisis https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_United_States_debt-ceil...
    - undersuit 4y ago
      Could we label these groups we're talking about? I think you're replying to someone talking about the GOP in the House but you appear to be referring to the Dems in the House.
      - matthewdgreen 4y ago
        You are absolutely right. I read this as an appeal to the Democrats to “compromise” rather than the much more straightforward approach where some number of the GOP just agree to unilaterally shut this madness down. It was the word “compromise” that tripped me up.
chiefalchemist 4y ago
> Also note that a lot of these government programs come with some amount of bureaucratic entanglement, where the person needs to fill out a bunch of forms repeatedly, visit government offices, be scrutinized by the government, and so on, all of which can detract from their efforts to better themselves and find employment. That's because these programs start with idea of having societal benefits but eventually persist to serve themselves (and the people they employ). Elevating people out of your program makes the peogram less necessary (along with the voters it employs). The Government Program Industrial Complex, if you will.
- birdyrooster 4y ago
  Middle class politics would make you think that it was ideal to have an upper and lower class to complement it.
jrumbut 4y ago
These programs are the result of compromises. One side says the programs aren't generous enough, the other says benefits go to people who don't deserve them. The compromise between those two ideas is what we have today.
- epicureanideal 4y ago
  Unfortunately it’s a terrible and unintelligent compromise that is worse than many possible other compromises. It’s almost intentionally dysfunctional.
hungryforcodes 4y ago
Here is a crazy but real story. At one point in Canada I had a friend who worked under the table in one of the larger metropolitan areas. He was making just a tiny amount each month basically being a waiter at a local watering hole and always had a hard time making ends meet. So one day I started talking with him about why he didn't want to apply for welfare, or some other benefit etc -- remember this is Canada, which has a bunch of social safety nets. His thinking was that he didn't have a birth certificate, had no idea where it was, and he was WORRIED that if he brought this to the government's attention he could be declared a "non-citizen" and might be...well..he didn't really know. He was very fearful of this. Eventually he found a girlfriend who was a friend of mine and we convinced him to sort out the situation and everything worked out just fine (he was obviously NOT the first person in Canada with this situation). But imagine he had gone for all these years avoiding the government just because of this line of thinking. So there is something to your point here about the fear of bureaucracy and scrutinization.
- dsfyu404ed 4y ago
  Where do you think this fear of bureaucracy comes from? It comes from the fact that the overwhelming majority of the time these people have any contact with government institutions they wind up getting screwed.
  - hungryforcodes 4y ago
    Fear of the unknown off the top of my head, and the fact that governments have "unimaginable" powers (true or not) from the perspective of someone in his position who is kind of "hiding out" from the system... ...he did not have enough contact / experience with government entities to really know if he would get "screwed" or not.
dsfyu404ed 4y ago
>how is it that obvious problems like the parent commenter mentions are not being fixed? Because if the problem goes away those people won't have reasons to vote for you next time around. LBJ has some rather crude quotes about this concept, it's not a new thing.

analog31 4y ago

All it takes is 10 people to wreck everything right now. And those people think that making society more fragile and cutthroat will somehow make us more moral, and in turn, more prosperous.

mjevans 4y ago
We're more divided than ever, and those ~10 people in the larger legislative chamber of the US Federal government will metaphorically kick and scream and whinge as they try to hold the entire country hostage... and the other ~210 who happen to claim to be in the same political party will let them out of a desire to keep some illusion of control they don't have, rather than compromise at all and work for the benefit of everyone.
- matthewdgreen 4y ago
  I think the 210 can rightly point to over a decade of compromising, and they can make a pretty compelling case that every compromise led to more extreme and dangerous behavior from that small minority. I say this as someone who supported this compromises and now deeply regrets it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_United_States_debt-ceiling_crisis https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_United_States_debt-ceil...
  - undersuit 4y ago
    Could we label these groups we're talking about? I think you're replying to someone talking about the GOP in the House but you appear to be referring to the Dems in the House.
    - matthewdgreen 4y ago
      You are absolutely right. I read this as an appeal to the Democrats to “compromise” rather than the much more straightforward approach where some number of the GOP just agree to unilaterally shut this madness down. It was the word “compromise” that tripped me up.

chiefalchemist 4y ago

> Also note that a lot of these government programs come with some amount of bureaucratic entanglement, where the person needs to fill out a bunch of forms repeatedly, visit government offices, be scrutinized by the government, and so on, all of which can detract from their efforts to better themselves and find employment. That's because these programs start with idea of having societal benefits but eventually persist to serve themselves (and the people they employ). Elevating people out of your program makes the peogram less necessary (along with the voters it employs). The Government Program Industrial Complex, if you will.

birdyrooster 4y ago
Middle class politics would make you think that it was ideal to have an upper and lower class to complement it.

jrumbut 4y ago

These programs are the result of compromises. One side says the programs aren't generous enough, the other says benefits go to people who don't deserve them. The compromise between those two ideas is what we have today.

epicureanideal 4y ago
Unfortunately it’s a terrible and unintelligent compromise that is worse than many possible other compromises. It’s almost intentionally dysfunctional.

hungryforcodes 4y ago

Here is a crazy but real story. At one point in Canada I had a friend who worked under the table in one of the larger metropolitan areas. He was making just a tiny amount each month basically being a waiter at a local watering hole and always had a hard time making ends meet. So one day I started talking with him about why he didn't want to apply for welfare, or some other benefit etc -- remember this is Canada, which has a bunch of social safety nets. His thinking was that he didn't have a birth certificate, had no idea where it was, and he was WORRIED that if he brought this to the government's attention he could be declared a "non-citizen" and might be...well..he didn't really know. He was very fearful of this. Eventually he found a girlfriend who was a friend of mine and we convinced him to sort out the situation and everything worked out just fine (he was obviously NOT the first person in Canada with this situation). But imagine he had gone for all these years avoiding the government just because of this line of thinking. So there is something to your point here about the fear of bureaucracy and scrutinization.

dsfyu404ed 4y ago
Where do you think this fear of bureaucracy comes from? It comes from the fact that the overwhelming majority of the time these people have any contact with government institutions they wind up getting screwed.
- hungryforcodes 4y ago
  Fear of the unknown off the top of my head, and the fact that governments have "unimaginable" powers (true or not) from the perspective of someone in his position who is kind of "hiding out" from the system... ...he did not have enough contact / experience with government entities to really know if he would get "screwed" or not.

dsfyu404ed 4y ago

>how is it that obvious problems like the parent commenter mentions are not being fixed? Because if the problem goes away those people won't have reasons to vote for you next time around. LBJ has some rather crude quotes about this concept, it's not a new thing.