7 ms·

What do you mean that it is now oriented towards partisanship? This has been true for at least a century. The recent Dobbs decision is as much the result of par

by xyzzyz 4y ago

What do you mean that it is now oriented towards partisanship? This has been true for at least a century. The recent Dobbs decision is as much the result of partisan efforts to institute policy opposed by the majority of the country as the original Roe decision was. The court has handled complex technical issues many times before. This, along with partisanship, is nothing new.

jimbob45 4y ago
Didn’t Dobbs return the decision to the states? Isn’t having the decision decided by majority vote the least partisan thing you can do by definition? If they had truly taken a partisan stance, they would have unilaterally decided to ban abortion based on specious reasoning not unlike Roe.
- wolverine876 4y ago
  I think we all know very well the partisanship involved, despite the theoretical questions (which might be interesting in another context). Majority rule is the most partisan thing.
- epakai 4y ago
  The decision was (more or less) up to individuals before. A state decision is inherently more partisan.
  - xyzzyz 4y ago
    I don't think that most people would agree that anarcholibertarianism (the system which allocates least decisions to state) is the least "partisan" option. That's not what people understand by partisanship.
  - _-david-_ 4y ago
    I think the person was referring to decision on the legality of abortion, not the decision of having an abortion. Instead of forcing the legality at the federal level it is now at the state level.
    - WeylandYutani 4y ago
      That would be true if States wouldn't overreach themselves and make it illegal for people to seek abortion in another State or prosecute its citizens. It doesn't take a genius to forsee a standoff between Red and Blue.
      - _-david-_ 4y ago
        States do this with all sorts of other laws. Look at the tax code in states for example. This isn't really unique.
- mensetmanusman 4y ago
  After Dobbs the US is more like the EU.
  - midoridensha 4y ago
    I feel like a large part of the US population wants to go back to the Articles of Confederation, which were so ineffective as a system of government that they had to be replaced after 12 years.
    - MomoXenosaga 4y ago
      Americans hatred for their own government is legendary and somewhat bizarre. It reminds me of the famous clip in Monthy Python: "what have the Romans ever done for us".
      - Dalewyn 4y ago
        Understand that the United States of America arose out of resentment for British governance and thus governance in general. Our literal essence is to distrust and hate all governments. The US federal and state governments exist strictly at the pleasure of the people and it's written in our Declaration of Independence that we can and will get rid of them all at a moment's notice if they stop enjoying the people's pleasure. That the Articles of Confederation got canned was a demonstration of the people's power to get rid of government that failed to garner pleasure. Stuff like our Bill of Rights exist because, yes, we fucking distrust and hate our government so much we felt a need to codify our resentment.
- einpoklum 4y ago
  > Isn’t having the decision decided by majority vote the least partisan thing you can do by definition? If one party believes something to be an individual right and another party believes it to be a matter for collective/state decision, then no. (Not that the Democratic party fully sees abortion as an individual right of the mother - after all, the Roe v. Wade decision did not really consider it as such, nor did it legitimize abortion throughout the pregnancy term; and the Democratic party generally supports Roe v. Wade. It has also not tried to put the matter into federal legislation for the 40-odd years between Roe and Dobbs.)
- BeefWellington 4y ago
  Which states actually feature majority vote = majority representation?
- rtpg 4y ago
  > Isn’t having the decision decided by majority vote the least partisan thing you can do by definition? Partisanship is not defined by "rightness" or "closeness to some notion of democracy", it's about closeness to a party line. Overturning Roe was a target of the Republican Party. They did it.
wolverine876 4y ago
> The recent Dobbs decision is as much the result of partisan efforts to institute policy opposed by the majority of the country as the original Roe decision was. It's not just one decision, but would you provide support for that claim? Dobbs was decided by conservatives put on the court specifically to make that decision, which they executed promptly, along with other conservative priorities. Roe was decided by conservatives also, and they weren't put on the court to rule on abortion.
- mindslight 4y ago
  I know it's much less convenient, but can we stop referring to the Republican party as "conservatives" ? In this case they reversed a precedent that had been in place for two generations, with a justification firmly rooted in collectivism.
  - yladiz 4y ago
    How would you prefer the Republican Party be referred to as?
    - mindslight 4y ago
      "Republicans" or "Republican Party" works - we don't need a synonym. If we really want to talk about views independent of the party, then let's characterize each view individually rather than as a group. What doesn't make sense is taking a group of positions that were conservative in the 70's, carrying them into the current day after society has changed significantly, and then talking about them as if they still represent a slowing of change rather than a radical departure.
- xyzzyz 4y ago
  > Roe was decided by conservatives Roe was decided by the Burger court, which, according to Wikipedia, "is generally considered to be the last liberal court to date". It was heavily based on a Griswold v. Connecticut precedent by the Warren court, generally agreed to be the most liberal Supreme Court in US history. Both of these verdicts were and continue to be widely criticized by conservatives as being based on extremely dubious reasoning. I don't know what made you think that Roe was "decided by conservatives". There is a lot historical revisionism involved around these issues, with many people making blatantly false claims, either lying, or being themselves mistaken. The result is that people who have not lived through it, or who have not studied the history diligently, are very much misled as to the facts, because the media, which is very good and active at correcting lies and falsehoods spread by conservatives, takes approximately zero efforts to correct falsehoods spread by liberals (often it in fact acts with clear intent of spreading misapprehensions, by selective reporting and careful omission of facts).

by xyzzyz 4y ago

jimbob45 4y ago

Didn’t Dobbs return the decision to the states? Isn’t having the decision decided by majority vote the least partisan thing you can do by definition? If they had truly taken a partisan stance, they would have unilaterally decided to ban abortion based on specious reasoning not unlike Roe.

wolverine876 4y ago
I think we all know very well the partisanship involved, despite the theoretical questions (which might be interesting in another context). Majority rule is the most partisan thing.
epakai 4y ago
The decision was (more or less) up to individuals before. A state decision is inherently more partisan.
- xyzzyz 4y ago
  I don't think that most people would agree that anarcholibertarianism (the system which allocates least decisions to state) is the least "partisan" option. That's not what people understand by partisanship.
- _-david-_ 4y ago
  I think the person was referring to decision on the legality of abortion, not the decision of having an abortion. Instead of forcing the legality at the federal level it is now at the state level.
  - WeylandYutani 4y ago
    That would be true if States wouldn't overreach themselves and make it illegal for people to seek abortion in another State or prosecute its citizens. It doesn't take a genius to forsee a standoff between Red and Blue.
    - _-david-_ 4y ago
      States do this with all sorts of other laws. Look at the tax code in states for example. This isn't really unique.
mensetmanusman 4y ago
After Dobbs the US is more like the EU.
- midoridensha 4y ago
  I feel like a large part of the US population wants to go back to the Articles of Confederation, which were so ineffective as a system of government that they had to be replaced after 12 years.
  - MomoXenosaga 4y ago
    Americans hatred for their own government is legendary and somewhat bizarre. It reminds me of the famous clip in Monthy Python: "what have the Romans ever done for us".
    - Dalewyn 4y ago
      Understand that the United States of America arose out of resentment for British governance and thus governance in general. Our literal essence is to distrust and hate all governments. The US federal and state governments exist strictly at the pleasure of the people and it's written in our Declaration of Independence that we can and will get rid of them all at a moment's notice if they stop enjoying the people's pleasure. That the Articles of Confederation got canned was a demonstration of the people's power to get rid of government that failed to garner pleasure. Stuff like our Bill of Rights exist because, yes, we fucking distrust and hate our government so much we felt a need to codify our resentment.
einpoklum 4y ago
> Isn’t having the decision decided by majority vote the least partisan thing you can do by definition? If one party believes something to be an individual right and another party believes it to be a matter for collective/state decision, then no. (Not that the Democratic party fully sees abortion as an individual right of the mother - after all, the Roe v. Wade decision did not really consider it as such, nor did it legitimize abortion throughout the pregnancy term; and the Democratic party generally supports Roe v. Wade. It has also not tried to put the matter into federal legislation for the 40-odd years between Roe and Dobbs.)
BeefWellington 4y ago
Which states actually feature majority vote = majority representation?
rtpg 4y ago
> Isn’t having the decision decided by majority vote the least partisan thing you can do by definition? Partisanship is not defined by "rightness" or "closeness to some notion of democracy", it's about closeness to a party line. Overturning Roe was a target of the Republican Party. They did it.

wolverine876 4y ago

> The recent Dobbs decision is as much the result of partisan efforts to institute policy opposed by the majority of the country as the original Roe decision was. It's not just one decision, but would you provide support for that claim? Dobbs was decided by conservatives put on the court specifically to make that decision, which they executed promptly, along with other conservative priorities. Roe was decided by conservatives also, and they weren't put on the court to rule on abortion.

mindslight 4y ago
I know it's much less convenient, but can we stop referring to the Republican party as "conservatives" ? In this case they reversed a precedent that had been in place for two generations, with a justification firmly rooted in collectivism.
- yladiz 4y ago
  How would you prefer the Republican Party be referred to as?
  - mindslight 4y ago
    "Republicans" or "Republican Party" works - we don't need a synonym. If we really want to talk about views independent of the party, then let's characterize each view individually rather than as a group. What doesn't make sense is taking a group of positions that were conservative in the 70's, carrying them into the current day after society has changed significantly, and then talking about them as if they still represent a slowing of change rather than a radical departure.
xyzzyz 4y ago
> Roe was decided by conservatives Roe was decided by the Burger court, which, according to Wikipedia, "is generally considered to be the last liberal court to date". It was heavily based on a Griswold v. Connecticut precedent by the Warren court, generally agreed to be the most liberal Supreme Court in US history. Both of these verdicts were and continue to be widely criticized by conservatives as being based on extremely dubious reasoning. I don't know what made you think that Roe was "decided by conservatives". There is a lot historical revisionism involved around these issues, with many people making blatantly false claims, either lying, or being themselves mistaken. The result is that people who have not lived through it, or who have not studied the history diligently, are very much misled as to the facts, because the media, which is very good and active at correcting lies and falsehoods spread by conservatives, takes approximately zero efforts to correct falsehoods spread by liberals (often it in fact acts with clear intent of spreading misapprehensions, by selective reporting and careful omission of facts).