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> An apple variety is only really rescued when it has found a home in commerce and some significant consumer base wants it. This is such a sad viewpoint on the

> An apple variety is only really rescued when it has found a home in commerce and some significant consumer base wants it. This is such a sad viewpoint on the world when biodiversity is valued only if it is commercially exploitable. See other threads on what "home in commerce" really means: optimizing for transportability and uniformity at the expense of flavor and nutrition. Late to the heirloom party, but this summer a friend offered me a cheese and tomato sandwich from her garden. I originally wasn't interested because tomatoes were always kinda meh for me. But after some encouragement I went for it and after the first bite, I realized I just never actually had a truly juicy and flavorful tomato in my life. When you say something needs to be commercially successful to be viable, be careful what you're optimizing for. Our commercial agriculture systems don't always optimize for the things you're sold in the slick marketing commercials. There's alternative commerce systems out there, but they look like a farmer's market where you might be surprised by a variety you've never tasted before and might have a few blemishes rather than the scale of a national supermarket where both coasts and everyone in between always gets the same consistent but bland red delicious.

walnutclosefarm 4y ago
> When you say something needs to be commercially successful to be viable, be careful what you're optimizing for. I'm optimizing for survival. If an apple variety has no market, it won't be eaten or enjoyed (so it becomes at best a museum accession), and in the longer term, it won't be grown, propagated or maintained, and because these things don't live forever, and don't propagate themselves, it will disappear. It doesn't have to have a huge market, it can be regional, or highly specialized; it can even be for nursery trees so people can try to grow it in their back yards. But just like anything that has to be produced (that is, that doesn't just persist on its own), it will disappear if no one is willing to pay for it to be produced. So, I'm not making a value judgment about commercial vs other, I'm just saying what it takes to keep something alive.
- twic 4y ago
  It takes money to keep a variety alive, but commerce isn't the only source of money. A properly supported public collection, for example: https://brogdalecollections.org/the-fruit-collection/ https://brogdalecollections.org/the-fruit-collection/
throwawaygal7 4y ago
Saving heirloom apples has zero biodiversity value, or near two it. All domestic apples are extremely inbred and from a one or two cultivars brought to Europe a few hundred years back. The reservoir of apple biodiversity , at least for sylvestris is in its native range where domestic apple cultivation is actively polluting the genome. I think that's like khazakhastan and western china.
- RosanaAnaDana 4y ago
  To add to this, any seeds from wild pollination will result in new 'varieties'. It's trivial to regain diversity from this species, and it's not like apple is on the edge of survival.
- RosanaAnaDana 4y ago
  To add to this, any seeds from wild pollination will result in new 'varieties'my It's trivial to regain diversity from this species, and it's not like apple is on the edge of survival.
- pvaldes 4y ago
  Common apple is still genetically very close to the true native species from Kazajahstan forests. This was a surprise for everybody. There are other species from Japan to Siberia that can act as pollen donors.
threadweaver34 4y ago
Tomatoes are the extreme of what's better from a home garden.
bbojan 4y ago
Or as my former colleague put it: I didn't know I liked tomatoes until the first time I traveled to Europe.
bagels 4y ago
Are apples one of those plants that require grafting to be true to type?
- walnutclosefarm 4y ago
  Yes.

walnutclosefarm 4y ago

> When you say something needs to be commercially successful to be viable, be careful what you're optimizing for. I'm optimizing for survival. If an apple variety has no market, it won't be eaten or enjoyed (so it becomes at best a museum accession), and in the longer term, it won't be grown, propagated or maintained, and because these things don't live forever, and don't propagate themselves, it will disappear. It doesn't have to have a huge market, it can be regional, or highly specialized; it can even be for nursery trees so people can try to grow it in their back yards. But just like anything that has to be produced (that is, that doesn't just persist on its own), it will disappear if no one is willing to pay for it to be produced. So, I'm not making a value judgment about commercial vs other, I'm just saying what it takes to keep something alive.

twic 4y ago
It takes money to keep a variety alive, but commerce isn't the only source of money. A properly supported public collection, for example: https://brogdalecollections.org/the-fruit-collection/ https://brogdalecollections.org/the-fruit-collection/

throwawaygal7 4y ago

Saving heirloom apples has zero biodiversity value, or near two it. All domestic apples are extremely inbred and from a one or two cultivars brought to Europe a few hundred years back. The reservoir of apple biodiversity , at least for sylvestris is in its native range where domestic apple cultivation is actively polluting the genome. I think that's like khazakhastan and western china.

RosanaAnaDana 4y ago
To add to this, any seeds from wild pollination will result in new 'varieties'. It's trivial to regain diversity from this species, and it's not like apple is on the edge of survival.
RosanaAnaDana 4y ago
To add to this, any seeds from wild pollination will result in new 'varieties'my It's trivial to regain diversity from this species, and it's not like apple is on the edge of survival.
pvaldes 4y ago
Common apple is still genetically very close to the true native species from Kazajahstan forests. This was a surprise for everybody. There are other species from Japan to Siberia that can act as pollen donors.

threadweaver34 4y ago

Tomatoes are the extreme of what's better from a home garden.

bbojan 4y ago

Or as my former colleague put it: I didn't know I liked tomatoes until the first time I traveled to Europe.

bagels 4y ago

Are apples one of those plants that require grafting to be true to type?

walnutclosefarm 4y ago
Yes.