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Try Singapore - what I would consider the model country. It’s what happens when a country decides that filthy cities with piss and feces everywhere, drugs openl

Try Singapore - what I would consider the model country. It’s what happens when a country decides that filthy cities with piss and feces everywhere, drugs openly being used in public homeless tent cities, and casual shoplifting not only tolerated but actually celebrated by some is not a measure of progress or w/e the hoards think it is.

delecti 4y ago
Singapore sounds ruthlessly authoritarian. Mandatory death sentence for drugs is barbaric. I would legitimately rather live in a city like you describe (and probably do by your standards, Seattle) than that.
- nemo44x 4y ago
  You’re confusing that with competent leadership. And that’s normal as we haven’t had that here in many decades. Our happiness has been in decline for over 70 years now and is accelerating. Citizens of Singapore have some of the highest happiness scores in the world. It’s arrogance that will bury us. Rights without the necessary hardship that responsibility brings is just not possible.
  - mindslight 4y ago
    Sure, but what do you envisioning this "competent leadership" doing to solve the drug problem, while not resorting to authoritarianism like just killing those who possess drugs? I agree "competent leadership" is direly needed. But all too often "competent leadership" is used as a euphemism for an autocrat who just opts for simple/expedient freedom-destroying measures. The only constructive (ie liberty-preserving) answer I can see is to make the bottom of society much less unattractive, reducing both the interest in drugs and also the ill social effects of drugs. But attempts to do that are generally criticized for not being authoritarian enough, or for costing too much. (FWIW I do agree that all too often, attempts to make the bottom of society less harsh result in lazy inaction rather than more intelligent action, which gets back to the original lack of competent leadership).
    - nemo44x 4y ago
      America is too far gone and too stubborn in its beliefs and values to be fixed or saved. We will continue to take on a form not dissimilar to South Africa or many parts of South America. We will continue to be the elite global super power and the dollar will be strong and this will help create more and more of a divide of the haves and have nots. Parts of cities and vast swaths of rural and exurban areas will be littered with decimated communities full of people without any ability to help themselves. The rest of us will continue to “progress” like you said which means liberalize/decriminalize without any action to support it while further privatizing the the things we do care about like education, etc. There will be islands of prosperity in an ocean of trash. In essence shanty towns/favalas will pop up and be left there. Individual identity will be valued by the upper classes more than anything and tons of “middle class” people will get caught up in but will live in tiny cheap housing in bad locations. The top 30% will thrive.
      - smcl 4y ago
        > We will continue to take on a form not dissimilar to South Africa or many parts of South America What does this mean? > There will be islands of prosperity in an ocean of trash My dude, you have described Singapore (GDP of ~70k USD) next to its neighbour Johor Bahru (GDP of ~33k USD). That's your model place! This is the ideal example you provided and it already fails your test, it is literally an island of prosperity!
        nemo44x 4y ago
        I think I described it but if you’ve been to these places then what you see is: - many things are gated. Armed security that is clearly present in places you wouldn’t expect is fairly common. - shanty towns abound. All over the near outskirts of Johannesburg for example are established shanty towns where housing is thrown together with sheet metal, etc. Favelas in Brazil aren’t much better. - pockets of great wealth and prosperity surrounded by disorder and heavy violent crime. This has become very common in these places. - inflation due to populist government policy. This has now started happening here. Too soon to know if it’s a trend or a blip. Singapore and Malaysia are different places. Since Singapore left in the 60s and went under new management they have thrived.
unethical_ban 4y ago
No one is celebrating homeless camps.
smcl 4y ago
Ah yes, "Disneyland with the Death Penalty". I'm not sure you understand the dynamic that created Singapore, or appreciate the relatively authoritarian measures that ensure that it doesn't become a "filthy cit[y] with piss and feces everywhere, drugs openly being used in public homeless tent cities, and casual shoplifting not only tolerated but actually celebrated". I'd like to know which city you're referring to, I've slummed it in the worst of European cities and I haven't seen anything close to this. It sounds like the right-wing characterisation of San Francisco, though. So if it is SF, I'd like to ask you: what policies specifically Singapore institutes that San Francisco (or the place you're thinking of) don't?
- nemo44x 4y ago
  The first step to recovery is to leave the denial phase and admit there’s a problem and it should be addressed. Many American cities and many exurban/rural towns (right-wing country!) have massive issues. They are filthy, violent, drug addicted, and mismanaged. Let me put it to you this way. In the USA and much of Europe (less so in Europe) there are large swaths of cities in particular where you wouldn’t go. Because it’s too dangerous. This doesn’t really exist in Singapore, etc. We just assume this is normal and unavoidable but it’s not. You don’t have to “know where you are”. Would you be fine with me picking any place in Chicago or SF and drop you off in it?
  - tptacek 4y ago
    This page will generate a set of random addresses in Chicago. How many times do you have to reload it before you get an address that would be tricky to handle? https://il.postcodebase.com/random_address_city/CHICAGO https://il.postcodebase.com/random_address_city/CHICAGO
    - nemo44x 4y ago
      The first address was: 5326 S CALUMET AVE CHICAGO IL 60615-4818 USA Which is in an area named “Washington Park”. The crime rates are here: https://www.niche.com/places-to-live/n/washington-park-chicago-il/ https://www.niche.com/places-to-live/n/washington-park-chica... It’s no place I’d ever want to be. I feel bad for the people that have to live there. Their government has failed to do the 1 thing it ultimately is supposed to do which is protect them.

delecti 4y ago

Singapore sounds ruthlessly authoritarian. Mandatory death sentence for drugs is barbaric. I would legitimately rather live in a city like you describe (and probably do by your standards, Seattle) than that.

nemo44x 4y ago
You’re confusing that with competent leadership. And that’s normal as we haven’t had that here in many decades. Our happiness has been in decline for over 70 years now and is accelerating. Citizens of Singapore have some of the highest happiness scores in the world. It’s arrogance that will bury us. Rights without the necessary hardship that responsibility brings is just not possible.
- mindslight 4y ago
  Sure, but what do you envisioning this "competent leadership" doing to solve the drug problem, while not resorting to authoritarianism like just killing those who possess drugs? I agree "competent leadership" is direly needed. But all too often "competent leadership" is used as a euphemism for an autocrat who just opts for simple/expedient freedom-destroying measures. The only constructive (ie liberty-preserving) answer I can see is to make the bottom of society much less unattractive, reducing both the interest in drugs and also the ill social effects of drugs. But attempts to do that are generally criticized for not being authoritarian enough, or for costing too much. (FWIW I do agree that all too often, attempts to make the bottom of society less harsh result in lazy inaction rather than more intelligent action, which gets back to the original lack of competent leadership).
  - nemo44x 4y ago
    America is too far gone and too stubborn in its beliefs and values to be fixed or saved. We will continue to take on a form not dissimilar to South Africa or many parts of South America. We will continue to be the elite global super power and the dollar will be strong and this will help create more and more of a divide of the haves and have nots. Parts of cities and vast swaths of rural and exurban areas will be littered with decimated communities full of people without any ability to help themselves. The rest of us will continue to “progress” like you said which means liberalize/decriminalize without any action to support it while further privatizing the the things we do care about like education, etc. There will be islands of prosperity in an ocean of trash. In essence shanty towns/favalas will pop up and be left there. Individual identity will be valued by the upper classes more than anything and tons of “middle class” people will get caught up in but will live in tiny cheap housing in bad locations. The top 30% will thrive.
    - smcl 4y ago
      > We will continue to take on a form not dissimilar to South Africa or many parts of South America What does this mean? > There will be islands of prosperity in an ocean of trash My dude, you have described Singapore (GDP of ~70k USD) next to its neighbour Johor Bahru (GDP of ~33k USD). That's your model place! This is the ideal example you provided and it already fails your test, it is literally an island of prosperity!
      - nemo44x 4y ago
        I think I described it but if you’ve been to these places then what you see is: - many things are gated. Armed security that is clearly present in places you wouldn’t expect is fairly common. - shanty towns abound. All over the near outskirts of Johannesburg for example are established shanty towns where housing is thrown together with sheet metal, etc. Favelas in Brazil aren’t much better. - pockets of great wealth and prosperity surrounded by disorder and heavy violent crime. This has become very common in these places. - inflation due to populist government policy. This has now started happening here. Too soon to know if it’s a trend or a blip. Singapore and Malaysia are different places. Since Singapore left in the 60s and went under new management they have thrived.

unethical_ban 4y ago

No one is celebrating homeless camps.

smcl 4y ago

Ah yes, "Disneyland with the Death Penalty". I'm not sure you understand the dynamic that created Singapore, or appreciate the relatively authoritarian measures that ensure that it doesn't become a "filthy cit[y] with piss and feces everywhere, drugs openly being used in public homeless tent cities, and casual shoplifting not only tolerated but actually celebrated". I'd like to know which city you're referring to, I've slummed it in the worst of European cities and I haven't seen anything close to this. It sounds like the right-wing characterisation of San Francisco, though. So if it is SF, I'd like to ask you: what policies specifically Singapore institutes that San Francisco (or the place you're thinking of) don't?

nemo44x 4y ago
The first step to recovery is to leave the denial phase and admit there’s a problem and it should be addressed. Many American cities and many exurban/rural towns (right-wing country!) have massive issues. They are filthy, violent, drug addicted, and mismanaged. Let me put it to you this way. In the USA and much of Europe (less so in Europe) there are large swaths of cities in particular where you wouldn’t go. Because it’s too dangerous. This doesn’t really exist in Singapore, etc. We just assume this is normal and unavoidable but it’s not. You don’t have to “know where you are”. Would you be fine with me picking any place in Chicago or SF and drop you off in it?
- tptacek 4y ago
  This page will generate a set of random addresses in Chicago. How many times do you have to reload it before you get an address that would be tricky to handle? https://il.postcodebase.com/random_address_city/CHICAGO https://il.postcodebase.com/random_address_city/CHICAGO
  - nemo44x 4y ago
    The first address was: 5326 S CALUMET AVE CHICAGO IL 60615-4818 USA Which is in an area named “Washington Park”. The crime rates are here: https://www.niche.com/places-to-live/n/washington-park-chicago-il/ https://www.niche.com/places-to-live/n/washington-park-chica... It’s no place I’d ever want to be. I feel bad for the people that have to live there. Their government has failed to do the 1 thing it ultimately is supposed to do which is protect them.