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So if I visually look at a piece of work and “run” the NN training algorithm in my meat-space brain or even on pen and paper, do I need to ask for permission fo

by jonkho 4y ago

So if I visually look at a piece of work and “run” the NN training algorithm in my meat-space brain or even on pen and paper, do I need to ask for permission for doing so? Or is permission required only if silicon chips “run” the algorithm? Asking for a friend.

dahart 4y ago
This isn’t what the comment I replied to was suggesting, which is important because the NN training algorithm isn’t how humans observe creative work, nor how we make insights. But, yes, the same standards apply whether your deterministic machine is silicon based, or meat based. Copyright law applies to both. If you reproduce significant parts of a fixed performative work, then you are in violation of the law. If your algorithm mixes enough snippets from enough sources, then it’s hard to tell, and you probably won’t get caught, but it doesn’t really change the fact that you’re mechanically copying. FWIW, copyright precedent in music seems to allow human-made remixes that involve multiple sources, as long as the work as a whole is original and doesn’t reproduce significant parts of the sources.
- jonkho 4y ago
  You are loading up my question with your own assumptions. My point specifically is if I’m just observing a piece of work and running the NN algorithm in my brain, does this constitute as illegal thought then? Do my thoughts violate rights? Note that I am not “reproducing” anything (whatever that term means). I am just observing the work and running the algorithm in my brain while silently sitting.
  - dahart 4y ago
    What assumptions are you referring to? It doesn’t seem like you understand Copyright Law, so that’s why I keep trying to explain it. Under Copyright Law, you have to acquire material legally, and it’s illegal to distribute copies you made to other people. If you’re executing a NN algorithm in your mind, or via pen & paper, then you are copying from the training samples, because that’s what the algorithm does. During training you compute errors against the samples, and update your weights to reduce error. During inference or generation, you use the weights (the results you remembered across all your training data) to produce an output. When your training samples are clustered in the latent space, the network will only remember an average of the samples, but samples that are sparse and don’t have close neighbors are sometimes remembered verbatim because there’s nothing nearby to average from. You can legally run the algorithm all you want on your own. Once you run it and then distribute the output, it might be in violation of Copyright Law if you accidentally reproduced one of the samples. Same is true for traditional human learning, you can free copy ideas legally, but reproducing too closely something that someone else made may be against the law, even if it was accidental.
    - jonkho 4y ago
      So we are in agreement that it is not violating copyright laws to run the algorithm on copyrighted works to produce the model, because if it is, my thoughts could be illegal too. In the end only actions such as reproducing the work and distributing it can be a violation. In other words, the end user of the model is the one to be held responsible if they reproduce and distribute the copyrighted material.
      - dahart 4y ago
        You have to acquire the source material legally. You can be in violation of copyright for copying music you didn’t buy. If you acquire work legally, you’re legally allowed to make backup copies for yourself, if you don’t distribute it. You can be in violation of copyright if you distribute something you don’t have the copyrights for. Thoughts are never illegal wrt US Copyright Law. It’s a straw man to insist on making this point. > In other words, the end user of the model is the one to be held responsible if they reproduce and distribute the copyrighted material. No, this is false because it is the creators of the model that 1) did not legally acquire the source material and 2) distributed the network that contains latent copies of the source material that end users can use to reproduce works from.
        jonkho 4y ago
        > You have to acquire the source material legally. You can be in violation of copyright for copying music you didn’t buy. This is incorrect. As another poster mentioned, it is not illegal to read a stolen book. It is only illegal to steal the book. Secondly the source material is acquired legally since it is open to consumption on the open internet. Thirdly model does not contain “latent copies of the source material”. By using a simple test (currently legal standard) that if I showed you the node weights and counts of the network no person even trained in the art can identify it to a specific piece of work. Therefore it is at best a derivative, reasonably distinct.
        dahart 4y ago
        > By using a simple test (currently legal standard) that if I showed you the node weights Nope, this is strawman and continuing to demonstrate a misunderstanding of Copyright Law. There is no such legal standard, where did you get that? If the network can reproduce a work, then it does in fact contain a latent copy. Arguing that you can’t see it by inspecting node weights is straw man. You cannot argue that you’re not copying music if you use a new compression algorithm and then suggest it’s distinct and derivative because nobody can read the raw compressed data. That’s not how Copyright Law works. If you can approximately re-perform someone else’s work, you’re in violation. This is true even if you have to run a black-box program to produce the output. > no person even trained in the art can identify it to a specific piece of work Ironically, you’re actually admitting that even AI researchers can’t prove the network won’t reproduce someone’s work. The rest you seem to now be looking for a snarky gotcha, which if you don’t want to have a discussion, then I’m uninterested in discussing further. I made clear above and in a sibling comment that remixes are gray area, and this question is complicated. That said, even if AI people do acquire source material legally, they are in fact copying it and distributing it, and that part alone can potentially violate US Copyright Law. This isn’t even up for debate, so I don’t know why you’re attempting to suggest otherwise. The lawsuits mentioned in the article were brought on evidence that networks violated copyrights of specific existing works, and lots of people have found specific examples of violations.

by jonkho 4y ago

dahart 4y ago

This isn’t what the comment I replied to was suggesting, which is important because the NN training algorithm isn’t how humans observe creative work, nor how we make insights. But, yes, the same standards apply whether your deterministic machine is silicon based, or meat based. Copyright law applies to both. If you reproduce significant parts of a fixed performative work, then you are in violation of the law. If your algorithm mixes enough snippets from enough sources, then it’s hard to tell, and you probably won’t get caught, but it doesn’t really change the fact that you’re mechanically copying. FWIW, copyright precedent in music seems to allow human-made remixes that involve multiple sources, as long as the work as a whole is original and doesn’t reproduce significant parts of the sources.

jonkho 4y ago
You are loading up my question with your own assumptions. My point specifically is if I’m just observing a piece of work and running the NN algorithm in my brain, does this constitute as illegal thought then? Do my thoughts violate rights? Note that I am not “reproducing” anything (whatever that term means). I am just observing the work and running the algorithm in my brain while silently sitting.
- dahart 4y ago
  What assumptions are you referring to? It doesn’t seem like you understand Copyright Law, so that’s why I keep trying to explain it. Under Copyright Law, you have to acquire material legally, and it’s illegal to distribute copies you made to other people. If you’re executing a NN algorithm in your mind, or via pen & paper, then you are copying from the training samples, because that’s what the algorithm does. During training you compute errors against the samples, and update your weights to reduce error. During inference or generation, you use the weights (the results you remembered across all your training data) to produce an output. When your training samples are clustered in the latent space, the network will only remember an average of the samples, but samples that are sparse and don’t have close neighbors are sometimes remembered verbatim because there’s nothing nearby to average from. You can legally run the algorithm all you want on your own. Once you run it and then distribute the output, it might be in violation of Copyright Law if you accidentally reproduced one of the samples. Same is true for traditional human learning, you can free copy ideas legally, but reproducing too closely something that someone else made may be against the law, even if it was accidental.
  - jonkho 4y ago
    So we are in agreement that it is not violating copyright laws to run the algorithm on copyrighted works to produce the model, because if it is, my thoughts could be illegal too. In the end only actions such as reproducing the work and distributing it can be a violation. In other words, the end user of the model is the one to be held responsible if they reproduce and distribute the copyrighted material.
    - dahart 4y ago
      You have to acquire the source material legally. You can be in violation of copyright for copying music you didn’t buy. If you acquire work legally, you’re legally allowed to make backup copies for yourself, if you don’t distribute it. You can be in violation of copyright if you distribute something you don’t have the copyrights for. Thoughts are never illegal wrt US Copyright Law. It’s a straw man to insist on making this point. > In other words, the end user of the model is the one to be held responsible if they reproduce and distribute the copyrighted material. No, this is false because it is the creators of the model that 1) did not legally acquire the source material and 2) distributed the network that contains latent copies of the source material that end users can use to reproduce works from.
      - jonkho 4y ago
        > You have to acquire the source material legally. You can be in violation of copyright for copying music you didn’t buy. This is incorrect. As another poster mentioned, it is not illegal to read a stolen book. It is only illegal to steal the book. Secondly the source material is acquired legally since it is open to consumption on the open internet. Thirdly model does not contain “latent copies of the source material”. By using a simple test (currently legal standard) that if I showed you the node weights and counts of the network no person even trained in the art can identify it to a specific piece of work. Therefore it is at best a derivative, reasonably distinct.
        dahart 4y ago
        > By using a simple test (currently legal standard) that if I showed you the node weights Nope, this is strawman and continuing to demonstrate a misunderstanding of Copyright Law. There is no such legal standard, where did you get that? If the network can reproduce a work, then it does in fact contain a latent copy. Arguing that you can’t see it by inspecting node weights is straw man. You cannot argue that you’re not copying music if you use a new compression algorithm and then suggest it’s distinct and derivative because nobody can read the raw compressed data. That’s not how Copyright Law works. If you can approximately re-perform someone else’s work, you’re in violation. This is true even if you have to run a black-box program to produce the output. > no person even trained in the art can identify it to a specific piece of work Ironically, you’re actually admitting that even AI researchers can’t prove the network won’t reproduce someone’s work. The rest you seem to now be looking for a snarky gotcha, which if you don’t want to have a discussion, then I’m uninterested in discussing further. I made clear above and in a sibling comment that remixes are gray area, and this question is complicated. That said, even if AI people do acquire source material legally, they are in fact copying it and distributing it, and that part alone can potentially violate US Copyright Law. This isn’t even up for debate, so I don’t know why you’re attempting to suggest otherwise. The lawsuits mentioned in the article were brought on evidence that networks violated copyrights of specific existing works, and lots of people have found specific examples of violations.