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Ignorance is a bliss, and your linguistic and historical ignorance is admirable as well as it continues to push new limits. Russian, as a distinct language, is

Ignorance is a bliss, and your linguistic and historical ignorance is admirable as well as it continues to push new limits. Russian, as a distinct language, is a fairly recent historical development that is slightly over 400 years old, and dates back to the end of Times of Troubles and the end of the Polish–Muscovite War of 1609–1618 when Catholic Poland – after sacking Moscow and keeping it for two years under its rule – eventually ceased to be a threat. Old Ukrainian, as another distinct language, predates the emergence of Russian by a few centuries (if we are to trace its origins back to the Ruthenian language). Granted, it is all Russian propaganda to you nevertheless. > "… Ukrainian inherent intelligibility of Russian is close to zero." False. Previously cited, non-representative, examples point to varying degrees of the mutual intelligibility amongst Czech, Polish, Russian, Slovakian and Ukranian. Intellligibility hovers at the 50% level at least. So, no, it is not zero. You are yet to provide a single credible example other than handwaving and vacuous references to a pub style banter. > On the name, including various discussions about the meaning of "Kraj". And the fact that "Krai" is still a type of division of land in Russia. Also false. It is one of the many meanings, and you are persevering with twisting facts to suit your own narrative. I have pointed to sources in the Old Ukrainian dating back to 1496 and 1667 in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34471179#34477841 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34471179#34477841, both of which state otherwise. Namely, that «ОУКРАИНА» and «ВКРАИНА» mean [at] «the fringe», «outskirts» or «the edge» (i.e. «окраїна»). You have provided no credible sources to back up your counterpoints so far.

Mikeb85 4y ago
[flagged]
- inkyoto 4y ago
  What exactly is the credibility of Robert Lindsay who describes themselves as: «BA Journalism […] teaching credential. Political activist, linguist, amateur cold case murders sleuth, psychological counselor (!), long-time K-12 schoolteacher. Former paralegal, freelance journalist, magazine editor, field linguist, and cultural anthropologist. Founder of the Alt Left political movement. Interviewed on radio multiple times. Multiple offers to be on TV and in movies […]». As well as describing the study method in the «Method» section on p.2: «First, a Net search was done of forums where speakers of Slavic languages were discussing how much of other Slavic languages and lects they understand» Also in the «Limitations» section on p. 5: «The first limitation in this study is that it relies heavily on self-reports from native speakers on how much they understand of the other language. Although this would seem to be an excellent way to study this question, the problem is that speaker reports can be off by quite a bit». Nevertheless. The paper reports the following results: (Ukrainian is not clearly defined here, so I assume Standard Ukrainian is meant) «Ukrainian: Oral intelligibility: 90% of Balachka, 85% of Eastern Ukrainian, Transcarpathian Rusyn and Surzyk; 75% of Belarussian, 72% of Podlachian, 67% of Lemko Rusyn, 50% of Russian, 45% of Eastern Slovak, 40% of Polish, 35% of Russian, 25% of Kashubian, 20% of Slovak and Serbo-Croatian, and 12% of Hutsul Rusyn. Written intelligibility: 90% of Slovak, 85% of Russian, 60% of Bulgarian, and 50% of Polish». Reported oral intelligibility of Russian by Ukrainians is cited at 50% followed by 35% in the same sentence and stands at 85% for written Russian. Even for such highly questionable numbers (50 and 35 – being stated merely a few words apart) and a more reassuring 85% figure, the result is clearly not «… Ukrainian inherent intelligibility of Russian is close to zero». «Canadian Ukrainian: Oral intelligibility: 5% of Russian». I am not sure what Canadian Ukrainian is. «Western Ukrainian: Oral intelligibility: 79% of Lemko Rusyn, 75% of Rusyn, 60% of Eastern Ukrainian, 57% of Polish and Eastern Slovak, 40% of Slovak, and 30% of Russian». 30% intelligibility of spoken Russian. Sufficiently not a zero. «Eastern Ukrainian: Oral intelligibility: 85% of Ukrainian, 70% of Russian, and 60% of Western Ukrainian». Stands at 70% of the intelligibility for the spoken Russian. Not close to zero by any definition. It also inadvertently back up the fact that Eastern and Western Ukrainian are sufficiently distinct from each other. Since you seem to have a trouble reading in general, and do not appear to have read the only (questionable) source you have provided so far, it is a moot point to carry on with the discourse, for there is none to be had. Enjoy your fermented beverage and your crack with mates down at the pub.
  - Mikeb85 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - dang 4y ago
      Enough is enough. Since you've broken the site guidelines repeatedly and egregiously in this thread, and have been ignoring our requests to stop for yours, I've banned the account. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. They're here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30570056 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30570056 (March 2022) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29477110 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29477110 (Dec 2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29213642 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29213642 (Nov 2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20671158 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20671158 (Aug 2019) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15379419 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15379419 (Oct 2017) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10819494 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10819494 (Dec 2015) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10692593 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10692593 (Dec 2015) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9886979 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9886979 (July 2015)
      - Mikeb85 4y ago
        Thanks but you guys are so obsessed with "civil discourse" and allowing "both sides" this place is becoming overrun with Russian trolls who simply recycle accounts. Sorry I can't help not replying to them, especially when they're far less civil.
        dang 4y ago
        Internet users frequently make grandiose claims about trolls, bots, foreign agents, astroturfing, etc. about accounts they simply disagree with. If you have links, I'd be happy to take a look. When we find accounts abusing HN, we ban them—and the threshold for banning is lower when it's a serial abuser. But someone else having an opposing view to yours is obviously not an abuse. Btw, if you can find a case in the last, say, 3 years where I've used the word "civil" in articulating HN's rules, I'd like to see it. We left that behind a long time ago.
dang 4y ago
Name-calling and personal attacks are not allowed here, and doubly not on divisive topics. You can make your substantive points without stooping to that, so please do. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit: please see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34492828 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34492828 also. We have to ban accounts that abuse HN the way you have done in this thread. I don't want to ban you, so we need you not to do this again.

Mikeb85 4y ago

[flagged]

inkyoto 4y ago
What exactly is the credibility of Robert Lindsay who describes themselves as: «BA Journalism […] teaching credential. Political activist, linguist, amateur cold case murders sleuth, psychological counselor (!), long-time K-12 schoolteacher. Former paralegal, freelance journalist, magazine editor, field linguist, and cultural anthropologist. Founder of the Alt Left political movement. Interviewed on radio multiple times. Multiple offers to be on TV and in movies […]». As well as describing the study method in the «Method» section on p.2: «First, a Net search was done of forums where speakers of Slavic languages were discussing how much of other Slavic languages and lects they understand» Also in the «Limitations» section on p. 5: «The first limitation in this study is that it relies heavily on self-reports from native speakers on how much they understand of the other language. Although this would seem to be an excellent way to study this question, the problem is that speaker reports can be off by quite a bit». Nevertheless. The paper reports the following results: (Ukrainian is not clearly defined here, so I assume Standard Ukrainian is meant) «Ukrainian: Oral intelligibility: 90% of Balachka, 85% of Eastern Ukrainian, Transcarpathian Rusyn and Surzyk; 75% of Belarussian, 72% of Podlachian, 67% of Lemko Rusyn, 50% of Russian, 45% of Eastern Slovak, 40% of Polish, 35% of Russian, 25% of Kashubian, 20% of Slovak and Serbo-Croatian, and 12% of Hutsul Rusyn. Written intelligibility: 90% of Slovak, 85% of Russian, 60% of Bulgarian, and 50% of Polish». Reported oral intelligibility of Russian by Ukrainians is cited at 50% followed by 35% in the same sentence and stands at 85% for written Russian. Even for such highly questionable numbers (50 and 35 – being stated merely a few words apart) and a more reassuring 85% figure, the result is clearly not «… Ukrainian inherent intelligibility of Russian is close to zero». «Canadian Ukrainian: Oral intelligibility: 5% of Russian». I am not sure what Canadian Ukrainian is. «Western Ukrainian: Oral intelligibility: 79% of Lemko Rusyn, 75% of Rusyn, 60% of Eastern Ukrainian, 57% of Polish and Eastern Slovak, 40% of Slovak, and 30% of Russian». 30% intelligibility of spoken Russian. Sufficiently not a zero. «Eastern Ukrainian: Oral intelligibility: 85% of Ukrainian, 70% of Russian, and 60% of Western Ukrainian». Stands at 70% of the intelligibility for the spoken Russian. Not close to zero by any definition. It also inadvertently back up the fact that Eastern and Western Ukrainian are sufficiently distinct from each other. Since you seem to have a trouble reading in general, and do not appear to have read the only (questionable) source you have provided so far, it is a moot point to carry on with the discourse, for there is none to be had. Enjoy your fermented beverage and your crack with mates down at the pub.
- Mikeb85 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - dang 4y ago
    Enough is enough. Since you've broken the site guidelines repeatedly and egregiously in this thread, and have been ignoring our requests to stop for yours, I've banned the account. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. They're here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30570056 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30570056 (March 2022) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29477110 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29477110 (Dec 2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29213642 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29213642 (Nov 2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20671158 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20671158 (Aug 2019) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15379419 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15379419 (Oct 2017) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10819494 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10819494 (Dec 2015) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10692593 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10692593 (Dec 2015) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9886979 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9886979 (July 2015)
    - Mikeb85 4y ago
      Thanks but you guys are so obsessed with "civil discourse" and allowing "both sides" this place is becoming overrun with Russian trolls who simply recycle accounts. Sorry I can't help not replying to them, especially when they're far less civil.
      - dang 4y ago
        Internet users frequently make grandiose claims about trolls, bots, foreign agents, astroturfing, etc. about accounts they simply disagree with. If you have links, I'd be happy to take a look. When we find accounts abusing HN, we ban them—and the threshold for banning is lower when it's a serial abuser. But someone else having an opposing view to yours is obviously not an abuse. Btw, if you can find a case in the last, say, 3 years where I've used the word "civil" in articulating HN's rules, I'd like to see it. We left that behind a long time ago.

dang 4y ago

Name-calling and personal attacks are not allowed here, and doubly not on divisive topics. You can make your substantive points without stooping to that, so please do. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit: please see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34492828 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34492828 also. We have to ban accounts that abuse HN the way you have done in this thread. I don't want to ban you, so we need you not to do this again.