4 ms·

What do you mean by "Westernize" in this context? Are you sure that Japan hasn't westernized (assuming no goalpost moving) perhaps just expressed differently?

keiferski 4y ago
Well I said “Westernized entirely,” implying that there is some level of Westernization. I am using this to mean an adoption of Western social and political values: universalist democracy, secularism, individualism, the unimportance of public space being sacred or imposing restrictions upon behavior, “the workplace is more important than the home,” and a million other things. Japan has some degree of these things, but there is a pretty huge difference between the average Japanese city and the average Western one.
- ericmay 4y ago
  I think a lot of those differences and distinctions are less pronounced once you get outside of the Anglosphere but still "western" - a lot of them just have to do with bad urban planning and architecture. The continent probably sits in the middle there w.r.t public spaces. But based off of what you said, and I of course have never lived in Japan, is there really much difference in practical, day-to-day activities in terms of being westernized? For example, you mentioned "the workplace is more important than the home" and I genuinely wasn't sure if you were talking about America or Japan. Of course there are differences in government, but are the differences more pronounced with England's style of government versus Switzerland, or are there more differences between France and Japan? Nevermind the Big Tent approach of the American 2-party state. Genuinely curious to hear your thoughts. I know what you're getting at, I guess I wonder if it's a meaningful distinction w.r.t at what point does one country become roughly westernized? Is Brasil westernized? Mexico?
  - keiferski 4y ago
    There are some pretty distinct cultural differences between Western and Eastern cultures, far too many and far too nuanced for me to explain in a brief HN comment. We’re talking thousands of years of culture, language, history, etc. As my original comment was saying, the reason Western people get so confused by Japan is that it is technologically “ahead” in many ways while apparently “behind” culturally, from the Western perspective. This cognitive dissonance is a result of the Progress ideal which merged culture and technology into one entity. This isn’t the case with other countries that are just perceived as being “behind” entirely, technologically and culturally.
    - ericmay 4y ago
      But is Japan perceived as being behind culturally? Many would look to something like housing costs in Tokyo, lack of prevalence of firearms, or universal healthcare as progressive values that Japan has that are "ahead" of at least America in (housing costs probably more progressive than the Anglosphere at least and probably the west in general). I have a hard time reconciling the general nature of your comments w.r.t Japan isn't westernized with the specifics as well. If westernization is mainly about philosophical traditions (secularism, individualism, etc.) I think Japan is certainly less westernized in some ways (think like many attributes that skew in different directions), but if you look at other things, maybe it's not? You could examine attributes such as the tight alliances with the west to how anime characters are represented. I'm still wondering if what we're talking about here is just a different expression of being "westernized" versus a meaningful difference. Personally I actually have a view that's moreso that the Anglosphere (US, Canada, Australia, UK, New Zealand) + Japan and perhaps to a lesser extent South Korea are more "westernized" together than say the Anglosphere and Germany and France.
      - fomine3 4y ago
        United States is also a exceptional very weird country in western world.
        ericmay 4y ago
        Yea I mostly agree. It’s really hard to compare a lot of countries.
- Hamuko 4y ago
  >“the workplace is more important than the home” Wait, are you saying that this is a western value?
  - quartesixte 4y ago
    Japan. Land of the overworked Salaryman. Is like the literal embodiment of this.
    - keiferski 4y ago
      Actually I meant it as a Western value, in reference to the fact that women in Japan often leave the workforce to focus on the home full-time. In the West, being a stay at home mom is not really acceptable socially, at least in major cities. It’s definitely complicated though, as the salaryman phenomenon shows. No simple and straightforward answers.
      - xeromal 4y ago
        I don't think there's any social judgement for a woman to quit her job and become a stay at home mom. I think it's only less popular in the US due to lack of financial freedom to pull that off. I do noodle around this thought in my head though that socially accepting women to work ended up just making family lives harder. If take the assumption that corporations aren't generally giving in how they raise salaries and such, it seems like women were onboarded into the workplace but men and women just share the same slice of pie that men had before the change took place. So instead of a man making X$s a year to raise a family, it's just the same 2 * (X$ / 2) and now the kid has to be raised in daycare which I believe is less beneficial than being raised their parents, dad or mom. This is definitely a showerthought and not something I feel strongly for. It's just more of a what-if question.
- quartesixte 4y ago
  Modern Japanese society is closer to 1950s America than it is Meiji or Edo Japanese. Occupation had a profound impact on them and still does to this day. In fact, I’d posit that the reason why the “West” views Japan with such fascination is because it’s looking into an alternate history. “What if the hippies and postmodernists lost in the 1960s?” A lot of the cultural values Japan exhibits can be found in old PSA videos and newsreel footage of 1950s and early 1960s USA. Then they skipped straight into 1980s yuppie consumerism, spedrun straight into a financial crisis and then skipped straight into the smartphone era. It truly is a different place but not for reasons of deep history (bushido is a 19th century invention, Sushi as we consume it is only as old as modern refrigeration, Tokyo metro used to be a dirty noisy place).
  - midoridensha 4y ago
    AFAICT, the Hippies lost in America too, or worse: they turned into people who completely supported the values they professed to abhor when they were hippies.

keiferski 4y ago

Well I said “Westernized entirely,” implying that there is some level of Westernization. I am using this to mean an adoption of Western social and political values: universalist democracy, secularism, individualism, the unimportance of public space being sacred or imposing restrictions upon behavior, “the workplace is more important than the home,” and a million other things. Japan has some degree of these things, but there is a pretty huge difference between the average Japanese city and the average Western one.

ericmay 4y ago
I think a lot of those differences and distinctions are less pronounced once you get outside of the Anglosphere but still "western" - a lot of them just have to do with bad urban planning and architecture. The continent probably sits in the middle there w.r.t public spaces. But based off of what you said, and I of course have never lived in Japan, is there really much difference in practical, day-to-day activities in terms of being westernized? For example, you mentioned "the workplace is more important than the home" and I genuinely wasn't sure if you were talking about America or Japan. Of course there are differences in government, but are the differences more pronounced with England's style of government versus Switzerland, or are there more differences between France and Japan? Nevermind the Big Tent approach of the American 2-party state. Genuinely curious to hear your thoughts. I know what you're getting at, I guess I wonder if it's a meaningful distinction w.r.t at what point does one country become roughly westernized? Is Brasil westernized? Mexico?
- keiferski 4y ago
  There are some pretty distinct cultural differences between Western and Eastern cultures, far too many and far too nuanced for me to explain in a brief HN comment. We’re talking thousands of years of culture, language, history, etc. As my original comment was saying, the reason Western people get so confused by Japan is that it is technologically “ahead” in many ways while apparently “behind” culturally, from the Western perspective. This cognitive dissonance is a result of the Progress ideal which merged culture and technology into one entity. This isn’t the case with other countries that are just perceived as being “behind” entirely, technologically and culturally.
  - ericmay 4y ago
    But is Japan perceived as being behind culturally? Many would look to something like housing costs in Tokyo, lack of prevalence of firearms, or universal healthcare as progressive values that Japan has that are "ahead" of at least America in (housing costs probably more progressive than the Anglosphere at least and probably the west in general). I have a hard time reconciling the general nature of your comments w.r.t Japan isn't westernized with the specifics as well. If westernization is mainly about philosophical traditions (secularism, individualism, etc.) I think Japan is certainly less westernized in some ways (think like many attributes that skew in different directions), but if you look at other things, maybe it's not? You could examine attributes such as the tight alliances with the west to how anime characters are represented. I'm still wondering if what we're talking about here is just a different expression of being "westernized" versus a meaningful difference. Personally I actually have a view that's moreso that the Anglosphere (US, Canada, Australia, UK, New Zealand) + Japan and perhaps to a lesser extent South Korea are more "westernized" together than say the Anglosphere and Germany and France.
    - fomine3 4y ago
      United States is also a exceptional very weird country in western world.
      - ericmay 4y ago
        Yea I mostly agree. It’s really hard to compare a lot of countries.
Hamuko 4y ago
>“the workplace is more important than the home” Wait, are you saying that this is a western value?
- quartesixte 4y ago
  Japan. Land of the overworked Salaryman. Is like the literal embodiment of this.
  - keiferski 4y ago
    Actually I meant it as a Western value, in reference to the fact that women in Japan often leave the workforce to focus on the home full-time. In the West, being a stay at home mom is not really acceptable socially, at least in major cities. It’s definitely complicated though, as the salaryman phenomenon shows. No simple and straightforward answers.
    - xeromal 4y ago
      I don't think there's any social judgement for a woman to quit her job and become a stay at home mom. I think it's only less popular in the US due to lack of financial freedom to pull that off. I do noodle around this thought in my head though that socially accepting women to work ended up just making family lives harder. If take the assumption that corporations aren't generally giving in how they raise salaries and such, it seems like women were onboarded into the workplace but men and women just share the same slice of pie that men had before the change took place. So instead of a man making X$s a year to raise a family, it's just the same 2 * (X$ / 2) and now the kid has to be raised in daycare which I believe is less beneficial than being raised their parents, dad or mom. This is definitely a showerthought and not something I feel strongly for. It's just more of a what-if question.
quartesixte 4y ago
Modern Japanese society is closer to 1950s America than it is Meiji or Edo Japanese. Occupation had a profound impact on them and still does to this day. In fact, I’d posit that the reason why the “West” views Japan with such fascination is because it’s looking into an alternate history. “What if the hippies and postmodernists lost in the 1960s?” A lot of the cultural values Japan exhibits can be found in old PSA videos and newsreel footage of 1950s and early 1960s USA. Then they skipped straight into 1980s yuppie consumerism, spedrun straight into a financial crisis and then skipped straight into the smartphone era. It truly is a different place but not for reasons of deep history (bushido is a 19th century invention, Sushi as we consume it is only as old as modern refrigeration, Tokyo metro used to be a dirty noisy place).
- midoridensha 4y ago
  AFAICT, the Hippies lost in America too, or worse: they turned into people who completely supported the values they professed to abhor when they were hippies.