5 ms·

I'm not sure I agree with the final point All you need these days to build great things is a browser, a text editor, and the programming language or tool

by wulczer 15y ago

I'm not sure I agree with the final point All you need these days to build great things is a browser, a text editor, and the programming language or tool of your choice. Even when developing web apps there's sometimes need to use a network traffic analyzer, a debugger... Not to mention a plethora of tools for reading/analyzing/parsing log files, graphing benchmark results, generating test SSL certificates and a lot of other things that are not equally available on all platforms. And there's another consideration: if you're deploying your software on Linux it's just plain easier to develop it on Linux as well.

jballanc 15y ago
If you design chips, you might wonder how anyone gets by without an FPGA. If you develop a kernel, you might wonder how anyone gets by without remote debugging. If you develop drivers, you might wonder how anyone gets by without a C compiler or assembler. The problem with your critique is that you're thinking at the wrong level of abstraction. If (and, yes, this is a big if) you are developing a web app on a platform where all of the low-level concerns are taken care of for you, then the final point is completely valid. I'd even go so far as to strike the text editor from that list. Already today, you could (in theory) develop a Rails or Node app in Cloud9, store the code on Github, and deploy to Heroku with little more than a ChromeBook. Ok, we're not quite there yet, but I hope you get my point... That said, there are still chip designers, kernel programmers, and driver developers. And there will always be "backend engineers" (though I think we need a better term) who need debuggers, benchmark utilities, packet analyzers, etc.
- wulczer 15y ago
  Your point is valid, of course - developing specialized software requires a specialized platform. But what I wanted to say is that even developing a web app (and that's what I do these days) I sometimes need to use Wireshark. Sure, there was that guy that used an iPad, a wireless keyboard and a Linode as his PC so it's viable. But I think that's an exceptional case and it's more common to need quite a lot of supporting tools to develop things. And of course, you know, our designer can work with just a notebook (as in: a paper notebook) :)
- SomeCallMeTim 15y ago
  I develop mobile game software (Android/iOS), but what kills me (and keeps me on Windows, unfortunately) is the fact that I can't find an editor that keeps me as productive as the one I use on Windows (Visual SlickEdit). It's honestly not perfect, but for C++ and Lua it's unequaled in getting references and autocompletion correct. And since I also have a Windows target, I can take full advantage of the very clean debugger that Microsoft Developer Studio provides (for the cross-platform code). I spent a year with Linux on my desktop, trying every debugger tool available, and nothing comes close to working as well. Yes, I've tried vim and emacs. I even use vim when I need to edit over an ssh link to a server. And I could imagine getting my fingers used to the many-more keys I'd need to hit to do everything I do in SlickEdit in vim, but vim is STILL is missing two of the most important features I use (the cross-referencing/smart completion I mentioned above, and an auto-completion from the same file that I get by hitting shift-ctrl-< or ->). The features vim does support require more keys -- and keeping track of editing "modes", which is something else I don't want to have to do. And since I can write code much faster using those features (and fewer keypresses), I can't imagine switching. I used SlickEdit on Linux for the year I was there, but it's based on X, and doesn't integrate with modern desktops as well as a result. It even has a built-in gdb wrapper, but unfortunately it can't do as much as Developer Studio on Windows. :(
  - botker 15y ago
    :h new-omni-completion :h compl-omni :h compl-generic
    - SomeCallMeTim 15y ago
      Thanks, I'll try it.
  - dekz 15y ago
    You don't really need to keep track of the vim mode, you start typing text and either your text is entered or you now have half of you code all in capital letters. But seriously, as with everything it has a learning curve which is quite minor when you use it as your main editor. It becomes quite essential when you have the need to ssh into different machines on different platforms for distributed testing etc.
philjackson 15y ago
The thing that makes me squint at that point most is the lack of reasonable shell when talking about windows. I do so much 'meta' work in zsh/bash/perl that the thought of being without them, or having to use the bits that come with Windows make me wonder how people work.
- steverb 15y ago
  Windows has power shell, or bash, or zsh, or perl if that's what floats your boat. I use bash myself, but to each their own. You don't have to use the shell that comes preinstalled.

by wulczer 15y ago

jballanc 15y ago

If you design chips, you might wonder how anyone gets by without an FPGA. If you develop a kernel, you might wonder how anyone gets by without remote debugging. If you develop drivers, you might wonder how anyone gets by without a C compiler or assembler. The problem with your critique is that you're thinking at the wrong level of abstraction. If (and, yes, this is a big if) you are developing a web app on a platform where all of the low-level concerns are taken care of for you, then the final point is completely valid. I'd even go so far as to strike the text editor from that list. Already today, you could (in theory) develop a Rails or Node app in Cloud9, store the code on Github, and deploy to Heroku with little more than a ChromeBook. Ok, we're not quite there yet, but I hope you get my point... That said, there are still chip designers, kernel programmers, and driver developers. And there will always be "backend engineers" (though I think we need a better term) who need debuggers, benchmark utilities, packet analyzers, etc.

wulczer 15y ago
Your point is valid, of course - developing specialized software requires a specialized platform. But what I wanted to say is that even developing a web app (and that's what I do these days) I sometimes need to use Wireshark. Sure, there was that guy that used an iPad, a wireless keyboard and a Linode as his PC so it's viable. But I think that's an exceptional case and it's more common to need quite a lot of supporting tools to develop things. And of course, you know, our designer can work with just a notebook (as in: a paper notebook) :)
SomeCallMeTim 15y ago
I develop mobile game software (Android/iOS), but what kills me (and keeps me on Windows, unfortunately) is the fact that I can't find an editor that keeps me as productive as the one I use on Windows (Visual SlickEdit). It's honestly not perfect, but for C++ and Lua it's unequaled in getting references and autocompletion correct. And since I also have a Windows target, I can take full advantage of the very clean debugger that Microsoft Developer Studio provides (for the cross-platform code). I spent a year with Linux on my desktop, trying every debugger tool available, and nothing comes close to working as well. Yes, I've tried vim and emacs. I even use vim when I need to edit over an ssh link to a server. And I could imagine getting my fingers used to the many-more keys I'd need to hit to do everything I do in SlickEdit in vim, but vim is STILL is missing two of the most important features I use (the cross-referencing/smart completion I mentioned above, and an auto-completion from the same file that I get by hitting shift-ctrl-< or ->). The features vim does support require more keys -- and keeping track of editing "modes", which is something else I don't want to have to do. And since I can write code much faster using those features (and fewer keypresses), I can't imagine switching. I used SlickEdit on Linux for the year I was there, but it's based on X, and doesn't integrate with modern desktops as well as a result. It even has a built-in gdb wrapper, but unfortunately it can't do as much as Developer Studio on Windows. :(
- botker 15y ago
  :h new-omni-completion :h compl-omni :h compl-generic
  - SomeCallMeTim 15y ago
    Thanks, I'll try it.
- dekz 15y ago
  You don't really need to keep track of the vim mode, you start typing text and either your text is entered or you now have half of you code all in capital letters. But seriously, as with everything it has a learning curve which is quite minor when you use it as your main editor. It becomes quite essential when you have the need to ssh into different machines on different platforms for distributed testing etc.

philjackson 15y ago

The thing that makes me squint at that point most is the lack of reasonable shell when talking about windows. I do so much 'meta' work in zsh/bash/perl that the thought of being without them, or having to use the bits that come with Windows make me wonder how people work.

steverb 15y ago
Windows has power shell, or bash, or zsh, or perl if that's what floats your boat. I use bash myself, but to each their own. You don't have to use the shell that comes preinstalled.