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Europeans have more gas stoves per capita than in North America. Are Europeans more brain danaged than North Americans, on average?

by dsq 4y ago

eesmith 4y ago
The main health issue is childhood asthma, not brain damage. I wasn't able to find mentions of any correlation between gas stove use and brain damage - could you provide a pointer? From what I could tell, childhood asthma statistics in Europe are very hard to compare as there are big differences in diagnostics. In addition to burning producing nitrogen oxides, carbon monoxide, formaldehyde, and microparticulates at home, there are environmental concerns as the production and distribution also leaks methane, a potent greenhouse gas.
- dsq 4y ago
  Sure: https://slate.com/technology/2022/10/gas-stoves-brain-development-air-quality.html https://slate.com/technology/2022/10/gas-stoves-brain-develo... So the claim exists, the question is whether it’s true, especially given that many advanced nations use them.
  - eesmith 4y ago
    You linked me to an article written by a neuroscientist who is curious if there is an effect, so finds "only two studies [which] empirically weigh in on this question, both conducted by the same group in Spain". The first shows barely any effect, the second a slight negative effect. "To put it in perspective, having smokers in the household, or lead in pipes, would be far more damaging. ... “Lifestyle behaviors or genetic factors probably have a much larger impact on specific groups of people”." The author later writes "I’m more compelled by the studies linking gas stoves to asthma and respiratory problems, but even this literature isn’t a slam dunk." There's also this comment from the second paper, which the Slate author didn't mention: ] It is still possible that the associations we found in this study with nitrogen dioxide could be attributable to unmeasured indoor air contaminants, such as particulates derived from gas appliances. This is supported by the fact that, in Menorca, the principal source of gas appliances is butane bottles, a fuel more toxic than natural gas (36) This makes it hard to compare butane cooking use in Spain with, say, natural gas cooking use in the US. Further, they didn't conclude that there was brain damage. They found a correlation with "cognitive functioning and inattention-hyperactivity symptoms in preschoolers" and conjectured it was due to nitrogen dioxide exposure causing brain cell damage, so saying "brain damage" is going beyond the evidence. To answer your question, the resources you pointed to suggest 1) that the amount of brain damage is small and not well established, 2) that other factors play a much larger role in comparing brain damage between North American and European countries (eg, lead), and 3) that the link between gas burning and asthma and respiratory problems is a much more relevant topic to focus on.
    - dsq 4y ago
      Firstly, thanks for the detailed answer. The article we are tesponding to itself has the text: “the stoves have also been linked to a slew of other health conditions from cardiovascular to cognitive issues”. Since the authors themselves raised the possibility, I saw it reasonable to suggest comparing European with American cognition. I also find it intuitively unlikely that it has any cognitive effect.
      - eesmith 4y ago
        I totally missed that! I was looking for "brain" and "damage", and overlooked the phrase "cognitive issues" and its link. BTW, I went back to the article where I first read about this (a Mother Jones piece linked-to from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28402439 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28402439) and didn't see mention of "brain" or "cogn*" in the piece. I've read a couple other articles on the topic since then and don't recall seeing this specific point, but as you've shown, I could have overlooked those too!
        dsq 4y ago
        >I totally missed that! Maybe the effects of a gas stove :)
        eesmith 4y ago
        Naahh, we've got electric. More likely it was from years of huffing butane as a teenager. ;)
yyyk 4y ago
Contra common stereotype, as far as air pollution is concerned, Europeans are much less 'green' than the US - see dieselgate and diesel use in general.

Europeans have more gas stoves per capita than in North America. Are Europeans more brain danaged than North Americans, on average?

by dsq 4y ago

Europeans have more gas stoves per capita than in North America. Are Europeans more brain danaged than North Americans, on average?

eesmith 4y ago

The main health issue is childhood asthma, not brain damage. I wasn't able to find mentions of any correlation between gas stove use and brain damage - could you provide a pointer? From what I could tell, childhood asthma statistics in Europe are very hard to compare as there are big differences in diagnostics. In addition to burning producing nitrogen oxides, carbon monoxide, formaldehyde, and microparticulates at home, there are environmental concerns as the production and distribution also leaks methane, a potent greenhouse gas.

dsq 4y ago
Sure: https://slate.com/technology/2022/10/gas-stoves-brain-development-air-quality.html https://slate.com/technology/2022/10/gas-stoves-brain-develo... So the claim exists, the question is whether it’s true, especially given that many advanced nations use them.
- eesmith 4y ago
  You linked me to an article written by a neuroscientist who is curious if there is an effect, so finds "only two studies [which] empirically weigh in on this question, both conducted by the same group in Spain". The first shows barely any effect, the second a slight negative effect. "To put it in perspective, having smokers in the household, or lead in pipes, would be far more damaging. ... “Lifestyle behaviors or genetic factors probably have a much larger impact on specific groups of people”." The author later writes "I’m more compelled by the studies linking gas stoves to asthma and respiratory problems, but even this literature isn’t a slam dunk." There's also this comment from the second paper, which the Slate author didn't mention: ] It is still possible that the associations we found in this study with nitrogen dioxide could be attributable to unmeasured indoor air contaminants, such as particulates derived from gas appliances. This is supported by the fact that, in Menorca, the principal source of gas appliances is butane bottles, a fuel more toxic than natural gas (36) This makes it hard to compare butane cooking use in Spain with, say, natural gas cooking use in the US. Further, they didn't conclude that there was brain damage. They found a correlation with "cognitive functioning and inattention-hyperactivity symptoms in preschoolers" and conjectured it was due to nitrogen dioxide exposure causing brain cell damage, so saying "brain damage" is going beyond the evidence. To answer your question, the resources you pointed to suggest 1) that the amount of brain damage is small and not well established, 2) that other factors play a much larger role in comparing brain damage between North American and European countries (eg, lead), and 3) that the link between gas burning and asthma and respiratory problems is a much more relevant topic to focus on.
  - dsq 4y ago
    Firstly, thanks for the detailed answer. The article we are tesponding to itself has the text: “the stoves have also been linked to a slew of other health conditions from cardiovascular to cognitive issues”. Since the authors themselves raised the possibility, I saw it reasonable to suggest comparing European with American cognition. I also find it intuitively unlikely that it has any cognitive effect.
    - eesmith 4y ago
      I totally missed that! I was looking for "brain" and "damage", and overlooked the phrase "cognitive issues" and its link. BTW, I went back to the article where I first read about this (a Mother Jones piece linked-to from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28402439 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28402439) and didn't see mention of "brain" or "cogn*" in the piece. I've read a couple other articles on the topic since then and don't recall seeing this specific point, but as you've shown, I could have overlooked those too!
      - dsq 4y ago
        >I totally missed that! Maybe the effects of a gas stove :)
        eesmith 4y ago
        Naahh, we've got electric. More likely it was from years of huffing butane as a teenager. ;)

yyyk 4y ago

Contra common stereotype, as far as air pollution is concerned, Europeans are much less 'green' than the US - see dieselgate and diesel use in general.