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I still don’t get it. So in this fictional universe, has the legal system regressed to the point where kidnapping someone for (presumably) decades is no longe

I still don’t get it. So in this fictional universe, has the legal system regressed to the point where kidnapping someone for (presumably) decades is no longer a crime with a life sentence? Or alternatively, is the point that you can’t be punished for kidnapping if you might also have murdered the person, but that part can’t be proven? None of that makes sense.

justsomehnguy 4y ago
> kidnapping someone for (presumably) decades Presume Alice was 'kidnapped' in the ball for XX years. You trial Bob and sentence him for 20 years. 20 years passes, Bob serves his sentence and some time later it occurs what Alice were dead all these years, but Bob not only left the country but served his sentence. Or you sentence Bob for the murder of Alice (even better - execute him), yet Alice is alive, though 20 years later. Thing is, till the bubble pops you don't know for what exactly you should punish someone and hence - how hard and harsh. It's a classical dilemma of bringing in/justice with the lack of means to prove anything. There was a short story in a similar vein with a 'light retarded glass', ie glass what slowed the passage of light through it for times. It were essentially a CCTV/DVR with a years to retrieve 'the record'. The protagonist of the story waited for ~decades waiting to confirm if he sentenced the culprit rightfully for murder or he murdered innocent person with the state authority. Maybe someone would remember what was the name of this story.
- michpoch 4y ago
  What would be the difference between this futuristic case and: - Bob kidnapping Alice - Alice not being found - Bob's guilt of the kidnapping is proven in court Bob could claim e.g. that she escaped after being kidnapped and he's no longer aware of where she is. Alice's dead body can still be found at some point, which could prove that Bob killed Alice; or she can be found alive, but because of any reason did not want to be found.
- fractallyte 4y ago
  Bob Shaw's 'slow glass': https://sf-encyclopedia.com/entry/slow_glass https://sf-encyclopedia.com/entry/slow_glass
- FeepingCreature 4y ago
  This is not how double jeopardy works. By all means, sentence Bob for kidnapping, stick him in jail, have him get out, put a tracker on him and forbid him to leave the country. Then, when Alice pops out and is dead, you just trial him again. It's a different crime! What's more, even if it was the same crime, it'd be material new information! (Quoth the ECHR: "The provisions of the preceding paragraph shall not prevent the reopening of the case in accordance with the law and penal procedure of the State concerned, if there is evidence of new or newly discovered facts")
  - justsomehnguy 4y ago
    Thats great, but the ball pops and its not Alice there. You jailed Bob for years for the crime he didn't commit. Are you happy?
    - FeepingCreature 4y ago
      If it's not Alice there, bubbling Bob was also an injustice.
throwbadubadu 4y ago
Why regressed? You sure can trial them for either kidnapping or murder. But first do the same thing to them they did to the victim, and then you also know for what to trial them. Sounds fair and makes total sense to me.
doctor_eval 4y ago
No, Bob’s put into stasis until Alice is out of stasis, and then he is tried for the appropriate crime. I suppose you could say that the minimum sentence is losing the same amount of time that Alice lost with her loved ones. There is also the interesting question, what if Alice was never in the bubble in the first place?
KineticLensman 4y ago
> So in this fictional universe, has the legal system regressed to the point where kidnapping someone for (presumably) decades is no longer a crime with a life sentence? Vinge posits a technology that is used for good and bad purposes. One of the protagonists is a cop who is bobbled by a criminal and emerges in the distant future, when the Earth is essentially uninhabited except for a handful of humans who have been bobbled (electively or not).

justsomehnguy 4y ago

> kidnapping someone for (presumably) decades Presume Alice was 'kidnapped' in the ball for XX years. You trial Bob and sentence him for 20 years. 20 years passes, Bob serves his sentence and some time later it occurs what Alice were dead all these years, but Bob not only left the country but served his sentence. Or you sentence Bob for the murder of Alice (even better - execute him), yet Alice is alive, though 20 years later. Thing is, till the bubble pops you don't know for what exactly you should punish someone and hence - how hard and harsh. It's a classical dilemma of bringing in/justice with the lack of means to prove anything. There was a short story in a similar vein with a 'light retarded glass', ie glass what slowed the passage of light through it for times. It were essentially a CCTV/DVR with a years to retrieve 'the record'. The protagonist of the story waited for ~decades waiting to confirm if he sentenced the culprit rightfully for murder or he murdered innocent person with the state authority. Maybe someone would remember what was the name of this story.

michpoch 4y ago
What would be the difference between this futuristic case and: - Bob kidnapping Alice - Alice not being found - Bob's guilt of the kidnapping is proven in court Bob could claim e.g. that she escaped after being kidnapped and he's no longer aware of where she is. Alice's dead body can still be found at some point, which could prove that Bob killed Alice; or she can be found alive, but because of any reason did not want to be found.
fractallyte 4y ago
Bob Shaw's 'slow glass': https://sf-encyclopedia.com/entry/slow_glass https://sf-encyclopedia.com/entry/slow_glass
FeepingCreature 4y ago
This is not how double jeopardy works. By all means, sentence Bob for kidnapping, stick him in jail, have him get out, put a tracker on him and forbid him to leave the country. Then, when Alice pops out and is dead, you just trial him again. It's a different crime! What's more, even if it was the same crime, it'd be material new information! (Quoth the ECHR: "The provisions of the preceding paragraph shall not prevent the reopening of the case in accordance with the law and penal procedure of the State concerned, if there is evidence of new or newly discovered facts")
- justsomehnguy 4y ago
  Thats great, but the ball pops and its not Alice there. You jailed Bob for years for the crime he didn't commit. Are you happy?
  - FeepingCreature 4y ago
    If it's not Alice there, bubbling Bob was also an injustice.

throwbadubadu 4y ago

Why regressed? You sure can trial them for either kidnapping or murder. But first do the same thing to them they did to the victim, and then you also know for what to trial them. Sounds fair and makes total sense to me.

doctor_eval 4y ago

No, Bob’s put into stasis until Alice is out of stasis, and then he is tried for the appropriate crime. I suppose you could say that the minimum sentence is losing the same amount of time that Alice lost with her loved ones. There is also the interesting question, what if Alice was never in the bubble in the first place?

KineticLensman 4y ago

> So in this fictional universe, has the legal system regressed to the point where kidnapping someone for (presumably) decades is no longer a crime with a life sentence? Vinge posits a technology that is used for good and bad purposes. One of the protagonists is a cop who is bobbled by a criminal and emerges in the distant future, when the Earth is essentially uninhabited except for a handful of humans who have been bobbled (electively or not).