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With all due respect, historical and linguistic assertions are borderline nonsense. > Ukrainian language is closer to Czech and Slovak than to Russian. Ukraini

With all due respect, historical and linguistic assertions are borderline nonsense. > Ukrainian language is closer to Czech and Slovak than to Russian. Ukrainian culture is closer to Polish and Slovak culture than Russian. Which Ukrainian language? Western Ukrainian is closer to Polish due to a historical affiliation with and influence of the medieval Polish Kingdom first and the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth later. Eastern Ukrainian is most likely closest to the Ruthenian language. Both are independent and separate developments from the Russian language. Modern Standard Ukrainian is a fairly recent linguistic development and is an amalgamation of multiple branches of Ukrainian languages that took place throughout the course of the 19th century as the result of the almost clandestine work of many Ukrainian scholars during the times of the late Russian Empire. > "Kraj" means land or country. Borderland would be "O-krajina". Meanwhile Ukraine is "U-kraijina". Cyrillic О vs У. «kraj» has descended from a Proto-Slavic of *krajь. It can mean «region», «country» or «land», but it can also mean «outskirt», «edge» or «fringe». See https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/край https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/край for the explanation. "O-krajina" that you are citing can mean «fringe» or «edge» but not «borderland». Semantically, «у» is a preposition that governs the genitive noun case and is translated as «at» or «by» into English in this and similar contexts, which means that «Ukraine» can also be translated as «at the edge/fringe/outskirt» or «by the edge», and such a meaning is shared across multiple East Slavic languages. See «Old East Slavic» section, the first meaning in https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/у https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/у for the explanation. Whether «Ukraine» means «in the land/country» or «at/by the edge/fringe» has been hotly debated (oftentimes fuelled by nationalistic or political rhetoric from both, Russian and Ukrainian, sides) with no conclusive agreement having ever been reached. > The first historic mention of "Ukrajina" also predates Moscow and the Russian Empire. The historical name of Ukraine is «Ruthenia» in Western sources as it was the name it was known by to Papal legates in early mediaeval times, and is «Princedom (kingdom in English sources) of Galicia–Volhynia» in local sources. When exactly «Ukraina» emerged as the current name is still not very clear. Princedom/Kingdom of Galicia–Volhynia emerged after the collapse of the Kievan Rus' in the aftermath of the Mongolian invasion and existed for slightly over a century until the Polish Kingdom forcibly absorbed it into Catholic Poland. Moscow was founded in 1147 and was a backwater town for quite some time, whereas Princedom of Galicia–Volhynia came into existence almost a century later. Both existed in parallel and independently of each other. These are plain and bland historical and linguistic facts, and there is no need to distort them with homebrewn armchair theories.

Mikeb85 4y ago
A lot of words to repeat Russian propaganda. There was far more concerted Russification of Ukraine than Polish-ification... The Ukrainian language is the Ukrainian language, what's spoken in the east is considered a Creole that's a combination of Russian and Ukrainian due to, well, centuries of Russification. > «kraj» has descended from a Proto-Slavic of *krajь. It can mean «region», «country» or «land», Obviously. Every second place here is called "X Kraj". Literally the word used for region still. > O-krajina" that you are citing can mean «fringe» or «edge» but not «borderland». Okraj literally means border but it doesn't really matter, edge and border are literally the same thing in English. Dunno why you are insinuating it's different. Language does evolve though, now there's different words (and more words) for edge, border, suburb, periphery, etc... It's not clear that Kraj on it's own was "edge" or "border" though. Okraj definitely was however > Moscow was founded in 1147 So I got one date wrong (I was thinking of Moscow's rise as an actual city state post-Mongol yoke, not the date they made a fort in a swamp especially since the first town was completely destroyed by the Mongols) but first mention of "Ukraine" is 1187. Long before the Russian Empire, before the Mongol invasions, long before Moscow was anything more than a small fort.
- inkyoto 4y ago
  > A lot of words to repeat Russian propaganda. Duly noted. Ignorance, the lack of historical as well as linguistic knowledge, and the lack of reputable and verifiable counterpoints on your behalf is now officialy Russian propaganda. > The Ukrainian language is the Ukrainian language, what's spoken in the east is considered a Creole that's a combination of Russian and Ukrainian due to, well, centuries of Russification. Please cease and desist. The prior statement had specifically called out the fact that Ukrainian has most likely descended – and please do yourself a favour to read it thrice – from the Ruthenian language which was an independent and a separate lingustic development and a separate language from the not yet existing Russian language, however with influences from Polish in what we now know as Western Ukraine. Ukranian being an insignificant dialect of Russian is the Russian Empire time propaganda. I fail to comprehend why you have chosen to contort previously stated facts so blatantly and obviously. > Obviously. Every second place here is called "X Kraj". Literally the word used for region still. > Okraj literally means border but it doesn't really matter, edge and border are literally the same thing in English. Dunno why you are insinuating it's different. I beseech you to allow me to graciously lift the veil of your linguistic confusion. Consider the following examples (languages are listed out strictly in the alphabetical order): Example 1: English: the city fringe Czech: okraj města Polish: obrzeża miasta Russian: окраина города (okraina goroda) Slovak: okraj mesta Ukrainian: околиця міста (okolycja mista) Example 2: English: at the city fringe / at the outskirts of the city Czech: na okraji města Polish: na obrzeżach miasta Russian: на краю города (na kraju goroda) Slovak: na okraji mesta Ukrainian: на околиці міста (na okolyci mista) Example 3: English: the edge of the world Czech: okraj světa Polish: kraniec świata Russian: край света (metaphorical or archaic) / край земли (kraj sveta / kraj zemli) Slovak: okraj sveta Ukrainian: краю світу (kraju svitu) Example 4: English: at the edge of the bed Czech: na okraji postele Polish: na skraju łóżka Russian: на краю кровати / на краю постели (na kraju krovati / na kraju posteli) Slovak: na okraji postele Ukrainian: на краю ліжка (na kraju ližka) What is obvious is that in some «kraj» related examples Russian is closer to Czech and Slovak with Ukrainian and Polish being closer to each other rather than Ukrainian being closer to Czech or Slovak (which is utter nonsense from both, historical and linguistic, points of view. But it won't convince you since Czech, Polish, Slovak and Ukranian are all Russian propaganda and are all admittedly Creole languages). Should you have reputable lingustic counterpoints that can be cross-referenced, please provide them. > So I got one date wrong […] You have got too many things wrong, and you have to own up to it, stop spouting nonsense and admit to misrepresenting facts either out of sheer ignorance, or pushing your own personal agenda, or expressing a unsubstantiated strong opinion, or merely possessing a complete lack of knowledge on the subject. Most likely a combination thereof.

Mikeb85 4y ago

A lot of words to repeat Russian propaganda. There was far more concerted Russification of Ukraine than Polish-ification... The Ukrainian language is the Ukrainian language, what's spoken in the east is considered a Creole that's a combination of Russian and Ukrainian due to, well, centuries of Russification. > «kraj» has descended from a Proto-Slavic of *krajь. It can mean «region», «country» or «land», Obviously. Every second place here is called "X Kraj". Literally the word used for region still. > O-krajina" that you are citing can mean «fringe» or «edge» but not «borderland». Okraj literally means border but it doesn't really matter, edge and border are literally the same thing in English. Dunno why you are insinuating it's different. Language does evolve though, now there's different words (and more words) for edge, border, suburb, periphery, etc... It's not clear that Kraj on it's own was "edge" or "border" though. Okraj definitely was however > Moscow was founded in 1147 So I got one date wrong (I was thinking of Moscow's rise as an actual city state post-Mongol yoke, not the date they made a fort in a swamp especially since the first town was completely destroyed by the Mongols) but first mention of "Ukraine" is 1187. Long before the Russian Empire, before the Mongol invasions, long before Moscow was anything more than a small fort.

inkyoto 4y ago
> A lot of words to repeat Russian propaganda. Duly noted. Ignorance, the lack of historical as well as linguistic knowledge, and the lack of reputable and verifiable counterpoints on your behalf is now officialy Russian propaganda. > The Ukrainian language is the Ukrainian language, what's spoken in the east is considered a Creole that's a combination of Russian and Ukrainian due to, well, centuries of Russification. Please cease and desist. The prior statement had specifically called out the fact that Ukrainian has most likely descended – and please do yourself a favour to read it thrice – from the Ruthenian language which was an independent and a separate lingustic development and a separate language from the not yet existing Russian language, however with influences from Polish in what we now know as Western Ukraine. Ukranian being an insignificant dialect of Russian is the Russian Empire time propaganda. I fail to comprehend why you have chosen to contort previously stated facts so blatantly and obviously. > Obviously. Every second place here is called "X Kraj". Literally the word used for region still. > Okraj literally means border but it doesn't really matter, edge and border are literally the same thing in English. Dunno why you are insinuating it's different. I beseech you to allow me to graciously lift the veil of your linguistic confusion. Consider the following examples (languages are listed out strictly in the alphabetical order): Example 1: English: the city fringe Czech: okraj města Polish: obrzeża miasta Russian: окраина города (okraina goroda) Slovak: okraj mesta Ukrainian: околиця міста (okolycja mista) Example 2: English: at the city fringe / at the outskirts of the city Czech: na okraji města Polish: na obrzeżach miasta Russian: на краю города (na kraju goroda) Slovak: na okraji mesta Ukrainian: на околиці міста (na okolyci mista) Example 3: English: the edge of the world Czech: okraj světa Polish: kraniec świata Russian: край света (metaphorical or archaic) / край земли (kraj sveta / kraj zemli) Slovak: okraj sveta Ukrainian: краю світу (kraju svitu) Example 4: English: at the edge of the bed Czech: na okraji postele Polish: na skraju łóżka Russian: на краю кровати / на краю постели (na kraju krovati / na kraju posteli) Slovak: na okraji postele Ukrainian: на краю ліжка (na kraju ližka) What is obvious is that in some «kraj» related examples Russian is closer to Czech and Slovak with Ukrainian and Polish being closer to each other rather than Ukrainian being closer to Czech or Slovak (which is utter nonsense from both, historical and linguistic, points of view. But it won't convince you since Czech, Polish, Slovak and Ukranian are all Russian propaganda and are all admittedly Creole languages). Should you have reputable lingustic counterpoints that can be cross-referenced, please provide them. > So I got one date wrong […] You have got too many things wrong, and you have to own up to it, stop spouting nonsense and admit to misrepresenting facts either out of sheer ignorance, or pushing your own personal agenda, or expressing a unsubstantiated strong opinion, or merely possessing a complete lack of knowledge on the subject. Most likely a combination thereof.